Trouble in the Bob

[BigHornRam]

http://www.kpax.com/story/34949116/state-of-the-bob-marshall-wilderness-complex-detailed

Goat populations have been on the decline in most all native mountain goat ranges in Montana, not just the Bob. Any thoughts?

 

[BuzzH]

Predators and conifer encroachment...you guess the causes for the both.

 

[BigHornRam]

Goat populations are doing fine in the transplanted areas with lots of tags being issued there. Preditors and conifer encroachment are in play in those areas as well. Could something else be the problem here? Disease issues?

 

[BuzzH]

Check the elevation differences and the amount of available habitat in the A/B, Crazies compared to the 'root, bob, cabinets (much narrower band of alpine habitat, and shrinking more all the time).

Try looking at old imagery from the 40's and 50's and compare it to now...intuitively obvious, even to the most casual of observers...

 

[BigHornRam]

Lot of fires in the last 20 years in Western Montana. How do today's Sapphires compare to the 40s and 50s. Sure about habitat shrinking due to conifer encroachment during this time?

 

[BuzzH]

Yes, I'm sure.

Fires don't create alpine habitat...and fire frequencies were/are very long in sub-alpine/alpine habitat according to fire records over the last 1000+ years.

Conifers aren't the only plant species found in alpine/sub-alpine habitat, nor are they the only species impacting alpine habitat types.

What is irrefutable is the habitat types have changed a lot over time, plant species invading into the alpine that historically weren't there, etc. Its not all due to lack of fire, cant be with fire frequencies of 100-200 years in much of the sub-alpine HT's.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Predators and conifer encroachment...you guess the causes for the both.

Wolves! What do I win?

 

[npaden]

Wolves! What do I win?

Don't forget the lions!!

 

[BigHornRam]

Wolves! What do I win?

A no expense paid DIY trip to the Bob in January to hunt them

 

[Keeptrying]

Predators and conifer encroachment...you guess the causes for the both.

What if I'm a bad guesser? Could you maybe help me out?

 

[BigHornRam]

https://www.amazon.com/Wilderness-Original-Life-Bob-Marshall/dp/0898861217

In Bob Marshall's biography it talk about a period of time, early 30s I think, that the elk population exploded in the Bob. Government was trying to come up with ways to get more people in there to hunt them. Interesting book to read.

 

[Straight Arrow]

In Bob Marshall's biography it talk about a period of time ...

It do?

 

[BigHornRam]

Conifer encroachment not expanding in root right now.

 

[OriginalOscar]

Two factors.

1) Hikers during the summer when the goats are having kids. Should limit all access from May to July.
2) Global Warming. Midwinter warm spells cause snow to melt into ice on cliff faces and the goats fall. Pre global warming we went from winter to spring melt without ice.

 

[BuzzH]

What if I'm a bad guesser? Could you maybe help me out?

Severe decline in lion harvest in most all of region's 1 and 2 where the goats are tanking. Conifer encroachment, not only changes habitat and shrinks available habitat, but provides more cover to lions, bears, wolves for stalking goats. Plant communities are more complex than most people realize, and even small changes in plant abundance, type, nutritional value, succession, etc. can all have severe impacts on animals like goats. They're really a canary in the coal-mine/indicator species with a pretty specific type of habitat they live in.

Over-harvest of goats in the past, too many nannies killed, and basic lack of management/understanding of goats and their habitat.

 

[BuzzH]

View attachment 69039

Conifer encroachment not expanding in root right now.

BS...and a steaming pile of it at that.

 

[tjones]

View attachment 69039

Conifer encroachment not expanding in root right now.

Serious question Paul, how long have you lived in the Root?

 

[BigHornRam]

Serious question Paul, how long have you lived in the Root?

Since 2004. In Montana since 1998. Lot of acres have burned since 2000. Would you agree? Goat tags have been reduced substantially in that time as well.

Serious question Tony. What do you think has caused the native mountain goat herds in Western Montana to decline?

 

[sethkuhl]

I often wonder about the increase in Eagles and the effect they have on babies. I know a guy that watched a golden pick up a mule deer fawn. With the decline of mule deer I started wondering. Anyone ever seen this? Is it possible?

 

[tjones]

Since 2004. In Montana since 1998. Lot of acres have burned since 2000. Would you agree? Goat tags have been reduced substantially in that time as well.

Serious question Tony. What do you think has caused the native mountain goat herds in Western

Montana to decline?

Predators, conifer encroachment, over harvest.

I have flown a few times with FWP on goat surveys. You can see a lot more from a helicopter up a canyon then you can from your house.