Treaties With Tribal Nations Are the Law

[azelkhntr]

It may come as a surprise to you, but Native Americans are federal taxpayers.

Uh huh. 90% probably exist at or below the poverty line. How much do you think they pay compared to benefits provided? We should be looking to abolish the reservations and fully assimilate them into the status quo. Canada nor Mexico have reservations and none of the inherent problems associated with that societal separation. The rezs act like concentration camps imo. Congress should act to do so.

 

[Panda Bear]

interesting

Someone is always sueing the government up here and it gets complicated because of the different law suits and rulings over the years. It also depends on whether it is First Nation, Metis, Inuit, and whether you are male or female, as well as whether the disagreement is in a Province or Territory and which Territory.

Up until the 1980's if a man married a white woman he retained his rights and they passed to his children. But if a woman married a white man she lost her rights as did her children

Surprising or maybe not surprisingly a lot a anger or at least jealousy is hunting and fishing rights. Many dont feel that we should be able to hunt and fish when ever we need food and they have to wait for a season, license, etc

azelkhuntr. I can not speak for the U.S. or Mexico but you are incorrect about Canada. However, like you, many here do not like the idea of us living by a slightly different set of rules. I am sure there are many like you up here who would love to take away our land rights and just for the record we ( myself and my family) "contribute" we dont "take". We are not nor do we feel like we are in a concentration camp. Do we have some who do not work to improve their live--yes. However when I visit the large towns back east, there are a few "white" men and women who do not and are not "contributing" , and our "taking"

 

[shootbrownelk]

It may come as a surprise to you, but Native Americans are federal taxpayers.

It may come as a surprise to you that they receive far more than they give in taxes.

 

[VikingsGuy]

It may come as a surprise to you that they receive far more than they give in taxes.

So do all poor and lower middle class Americans/jurisdictions, how is this news?

 

[VikingsGuy]

Canada . . . have reservations and none of the inherent problems associated with that societal separation.

Nope - do a little googling. Southwest Ontario has First People “reservations” I have been to, and they are very reminiscent of those in MN and ND. Plus one of the worlds largest indigenous grants - Nunavut.

 

[azelkhntr]

So do all poor and lower middle class Americans/jurisdictions, how is this news?

It’s significant due to the disparities in percentages.

 

[azelkhntr]

Nope - do a little googling. Southwest Ontario has First People “reservations” I have been to, and they are very reminiscent of those in MN and ND. Plus one of the worlds largest indigenous grants - Nunavut.

Canada doesn’t have reservations but rather reserves. Tracts of land set aside for use by the Indians but still owned and controlled by the Crown. It’s different and better for the people.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Canada doesn’t have reservations but rather reserves. Tracts of land set aside for use by the Indians but still owned and controlled by the Crown. It’s different and better for the people.

I am no expert on Canadian law but I think it is semantics with little distinction. From my exposure they are sadly similar on the ground.

 

[azelkhntr]

I am no expert on Canadian law but I think it is semantics with little distinction. From my exposure they are sadly similar on the ground.

Its a different classification but yes very similar living conditions wise. Worse in Canada I fear. I just believe its a great injustice not having full integration in American society which doesn't equate to abandonment of ones cultural heritage. Im not certain but I dont think the Canadians have a separate tribal judicial & law enforcement system, for serious crimes anyway. Poverty is twice as bad in Canada which surprised me. That's shameful no matter which side of the line you're on.

 

[Big Fin]

I don’t know what the answer is to any of it, but if you’ve never spent time on a reservation beyond going to the gift shop or the casino, you should if ever given the chance. Whatever you think you know, might change a little bit.

Agree.

Having spent a lot of my time next to reservations and having tribal friends, the world of reservation life is not anything we would confuse with a headstart in life.

Commonly, most US citizens aren't aware of the basics of property ownership on reservations. On most reservations, people do not have a deed to their land or house. Yes, they live there and they get to treat it like their own, but on many reservations I am familiar with, they don't have any vested property right in that house/land.

Without the basic principle of property rights, it is pretty hard to see capitalism prosper the way it does off the reservation. Are you going to make a big financial investment in assets you don't have ownership rights in? No, nobody would do that.

Is a bank or capital source going to lend money for property if the lender cannot take a security interest as collateral? No, not a bank or lender in the world will do that. So how do you stimulate economic growth when access to capital, one of the basic principles of commerce, does not exist?

We tend to try apply our non-reservation ideas in a system or culture that doesn't operate on the same principles of capitalism and free enterprise that exists off reservations. If people took more time to understand how different the laws and property rights are on reservations compared to what we take for granted, there would be a lot more understanding of the depth and complexity of the problem.

The old sayings about "assimilate" or "get a job" or whatever, might feel good to the person saying it but it is pretty hard to assimilate when your basic rules of governance don't recognize the fundamental principles the non-reservation world expects you to "assimilate to." Anyone who tells me that tribal members should "assimilate" is usually a defacto statement of how little the claimant understands about tribal law, lack of property rights, form of governance, and the economic/social complications created by such arrangement.

Imagine if you had no rights in your house, your land, your rental building, the assets needed to run your business. How much would you invest in those assets? I suspect you wouldn't invest much, if any. You'd probably invest about the same amount that you invest in your neighbor's property that you don't own.

Yet, many non-reservation folks, such as some have stated on this thread, simplify the complexities by saying "assimilate" when the basic tenets of capitalism and governance that would be needed to start assimilating don't even exist. There are a ton of other social, cultural, and historical issues that explain why life on reservations is so difficult. Not saying property rights would solve all the challenges, but us white folks who lack much understanding of the realities that exist aren't going to solve these complex problems with our loud shouts demanding tribal members to "assimilate."

 

[azelkhntr]

The past haunts US. Thank you Andrew Jackson. UGH.

 

[Glockster]

Imagine if you had no rights in your house, your land, your rental building, the assets needed to run your business. How much would you invest in those assets? I suspect you wouldn't invest much, if any. You'd probably invest about the same amount that you invest in your neighbor's property that you don't own.

Maybe this is the oversimplification that you’re speaking of but I would probably just move to a location where I could have those rights. Once there one could start out as many of us have.
Get a job if you don’t have one already, work hard and save money, get a first time home buyer loan, build Equity in the home, and so on.
I am not saying there are not obstacles in life, and some have more then others. I wish I could say the road to where I am now was all sunshine and lollipops, but that is what drives me now.

 

[antlerradar]

Agree.

Having spent a lot of my time next to reservations and having tribal friends, the world of reservation life is not anything we would confuse with a headstart in life.

Commonly, most US citizens aren't aware of the basics of property ownership on reservations. On most reservations, people do not have a deed to their land or house. Yes, they live there and they get to treat it like their own, but on many reservations I am familiar with, they don't have any vested property right in that house/land.

Without the basic principle of property rights, it is pretty hard to see capitalism prosper the way it does off the reservation. Are you going to make a big financial investment in assets you don't have ownership rights in? No, nobody would do that.

Is a bank or capital source going to lend money for property if the lender cannot take a security interest as collateral? No, not a bank or lender in the world will do that. So how to you stimulate economic growth when access to capital, one of the basic principles of commerce, does not exist.

We tend to try apply our non-reservation ideas in a system or culture that doesn't operate on the same principles of capitalism and free enterprise that exists off reservations. If people took more time to understand how different the laws and property rights are on reservations compared to what we take for granted, there would be a lot more understanding of the depth and complexity of the problem.

The old sayings about "assimilate" or "get a job" or whatever, might feel good to the person saying it but it is pretty hard to assimilate when your basic rules of governance don't recognize the fundamental principles the non-reservation world expects you to "assimilate to." Anyone who tells me that tribal members should "assimilate" is usually a defacto statement of how little the claimant understands about tribal law, lack of property rights, form of governance, and the economic/social complications created by such arrangement.

Imagine if you had no rights in your house, your land, your rental building, the assets needed to run your business. How much would you invest in those assets? I suspect you wouldn't invest much, if any. You'd probably invest about the same amount that you invest in your neighbor's property that you don't own.

Yet, many non-reservation folks, such as some have stated on this thread, simplify the complexities by saying "assimilate" when the basic tenets of capitalism and governance that would be needed to start assimilating don't even exist. There are a ton of other social, cultural, and historical issues that explain why life on reservations is so difficult. Not saying property rights would solve all the challenges, but us white folks who lack much understanding of the realities that exists aren't going to solve these complex problems with our loud shouts demanding tribal members to "assimilate."

A lot of truth speaking by Randy. Anyone that has a romantic view of socialism should spend some time on a reservation.

 

[VikingsGuy]

It's interesting to think presidents have terminated treaties. Carter and Bush.
The Supreme Court refused to hear both...

Yup - some treaties specifically allowed for Presidential recision within their terms.

 

[Big Fin]

Maybe this is the oversimplification that you’re speaking of but I would probably just move to a location where I could have those rights. Once there one could start out as many of us have.
Get a job if you don’t have one already, work hard and save money, get a first time home buyer loan, build Equity in the home, and so on.
I am not saying there are not obstacles in life, and some have more then others. I wish I could say the road to where I am now was all sunshine and lollipops, but that is what drives me now.

I quoted your post, not to pick on it or engage in a personal debate. The post is, as you say it might be, an "oversimplification." I provide some of these stats that might give more for all of us to think about.

"Just moving to a location where I could have those rights" would require leaving your lifelong home and most your family with virtually no money, no network of connections, a poor school system that likely left you with little formal job training, no health care, no roof over your head, no access to credit, trying to join a society that has a generally negative view of you and your tribal members, etc. I'm not trying to make excuses, just stating a reality that is hard to even comprehend in today's world unless we've seen it and spent time listening to tribal members talk about these and many other issues as their daily reality.

Get a job is easy to say. Brings forth the question - How does one do that with no jobs around, possibly no transportation to where jobs are, no training for the job you might be able to get to, no money to get you to this new location, and hardly anybody interested in hiring you because you are a tribal member?

Add to those challenges the overwhelming numbers who have been victims of physical, sexual, or other abuses by the time they are eighteen. We should all look around our life and try to imagine our lives if 3 of every 5 young women we see had been raped or sexually abused by the age of 18. That unfathomable statistic seems abstract in its immensity, so I try to think about 3 or 4 of my 6 nieces being sexually abused or raped and how my family would try to function under that situation. Alcohol and drug abuse is 3-4x on the reservations than what it is off the reservations.

I rhetorically ask myself, "Is it realistic to expect a person from that situation and the other factors above to just pull stakes, get a job, work hard, save money......?"

Yeah, a remarkable few can beat the odds and somehow they do it. Those that can do it have all my respect. I've provided only a small list of factors that make the simple idea of "move, get a job, buy a house" an overwhelming task for many tribal members.

I don't have the answers. I provide these posts to add more considerations to what I've normally seen as a simplified conversation. I am grateful for the friendship of my tribal friends. I wish them a better shake in life and I would do what I can to help that progress, though I am admittedly without any answers. I do know that denying them the promises we made under our laws, via treaties they were asked to sign in return for coveted lands and for laying down their weapons, is not helping what is a very difficult and complicated situation.

 

[Glockster]

I does sound like a complicated situation, no doubt that. If life on the reservation is half as unpleasant as you make it sound I wonder why on earth someone would want to continue to live that way, why would the tribal leaders want their people living that way, and why tribal people and leaders haven’t looked around and said this way of living life kinda sucks.
I also don’t think the herrera case nor overturning the conviction of a child rapist is going to improve their hand or gather more support.
I like you don’t have the answers, but it doesn’t sound like the status quo is working that well. Separating themselves further is not going to help either. If their situation is like most, the more the government gets involved the worse things get.

Honest question here, would discontinuing reservations,granting homesteads on formally reservation ground so individuals have true ownership of their property help?

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

I've encountered a few people who had family on reservations or lived there previously. Seems like a lot of tribal members somewhat encourage their kids to "break away" or look to other resources.

I've seen a lot of the poverty and related troubles that have been mentioned here and my heart went out. Something that I haven't seen is any tangible economic studies to support theories in any direction. If anyone knows any, please send my way. Thx

 

[VikingsGuy]

We should be looking to abolish the reservations and fully assimilate them into the status quo. Canada nor Mexico have reservations and none of the inherent problems associated with that societal separation. The rezs act like concentration camps imo. Congress should act to do so.

This was tried in earnest in the 1940s and 1950s. Its failure resulted in the abandonment of these policies in the 70s and 80s.

The 1950s plan to erase Indian Country

In the 1950s, the United States came up with a plan to solve what it called the "Indian Problem." It would assimilate Native Americans by moving them to cities and eliminating reservations. The 20-year campaign failed to erase Native Americans, but its effects on Indian Country are still felt today.

www.apmreports.org

 

[Glockster]

This was tried in earnest in the 1940s and 1950s. Its failure resulted in the abandonment of these policies in the 70s and 80s.

The 1950s plan to erase Indian Country

In the 1950s, the United States came up with a plan to solve what it called the "Indian Problem." It would assimilate Native Americans by moving them to cities and eliminating reservations. The 20-year campaign failed to erase Native Americans, but its effects on Indian Country are still felt today.

www.apmreports.org

One of those plans that in theory should of been a slam dunk.
It is difficult to be separate but equal.

 

[okie archer]

I does sound like a complicated situation, no doubt that. If life on the reservation is half as unpleasant as you make it sound I wonder why on earth someone would want to continue to live that way, why would the tribal leaders want their people living that way, and why tribal people and leaders haven’t looked around and said this way of living life kinda sucks.
I also don’t think the herrera case nor overturning the conviction of a child rapist is going to improve their hand or gather more support.
I like you don’t have the answers, but it doesn’t sound like the status quo is working that well. Separating themselves further is not going to help either. If their situation is like most, the more the government gets involved the worse things get.

Honest question here, would discontinuing reservations,granting homesteads on formally reservation ground so individuals have true ownership of their property help?

It is as bad as Randy described. At least on the reservations I have spent time on over last few years. It's very sad from what l have witnessed. It's not as simple as just "getting out of there". It is a vicious cycle. Generations of families seemed to be trapped.
1. No money on the reservation.
2. Very few jobs so depend on hand outs.
3. Steps one and two lead to depression.
4. Depression leads to alcoholism.
5. Alcoholism leads to more depression .
6. More depression leads to hopelessness.
7. Hopelessness leads to suicide.
8. I know this will likely ruffle some feathers but it is an honest and sincere feeling.
However while these dear people are holding on to their traditional religion because they feel it is one of the few things they have left it truly is a religion of no hope an no life and often times has witchcraft involved into it. It is a dead end.

One day a few years ago I spent a few days hunting and talking with a reservation resident. He told me that in a two year period they had 59 teenage suicides on his reservation alone! That is staggering to me.
I shared Christianity with him and he thanked me very much. Some want to do better but feel trapped. I have had positive socializing with some tribal members and have enjoyed it. I have become pretty good friends with one particular man. We talk on phone often. I have even entertained uprooting and moving to this one particular state and starting a church. This is a heartfelt subject to me. I wish I had more answers.