Treaties With Tribal Nations Are the Law

[3855WIN]

Neil Gorsuch Affirms That Treaties With Tribal Nations Are the Law

In upholding the Muscogee (Creek) Nation’s treaty-guaranteed lands, the justices did something simple but unexpected.

newrepublic.com

 

[thatsjet]

Very interesting. On one hand I believe we should honor treaties, this one included, and the fact that it was ignored is no reason to continue to ignore it. I too prefer either a textualist or originalist approach to the constitution. On the other hand I can't help but feel that continuing the "nation within a nation" approach of sovereign indian nations within our borders to at least some extent undermines our sovereignty. Sadly no good options when it comes to conquering another persons homeland. We shouldn't be here (under those circumstances), but we are. Unlike Israel God never told us to come here and wipe these people out. We (the US) are very much the aggressors so I can't help but feel this is somehow fair.

Much to consider.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

It is much to consider. It was an interesting ruling for sure.

When you listen to Native Americans talk about the position they are in - assimilate and give up their culture in the process, or keep their culture alive and suffer the consequences in today's world - they really are in a shitty position, through no fault of their own. It's horrendous how Covid swept through the reservations. My heart goes out to them.

 

[Sytes]

Neil Gorsuch Affirms That Treaties With Tribal Nations Are the Law

In upholding the Muscogee (Creek) Nation’s treaty-guaranteed lands, the justices did something simple but unexpected.

newrepublic.com

SCOTUS Tribal Part II

A case is set for SCOTUS and the potential changes will be pretty significant! Specific to hunting and public lands? If ruled in Tribal favor - We may be in for a real twist...

www.hunttalk.com

It is a very interesting ruling. Here is a thread that's been running for sometime on this topic.

 

[Steve Petersen]

This may just lay the groundwork for many many more federal lawsuits and land claims around the country.
I know several folks in OK who are watching this closely.

 

[Gr8bawana]

This is a very touchy subject with many people. I know that in my own state of NV about half of Nevada and part of Utah are part of the lands owned by the Shoshone Nation as per the 1863 Treaty of Ruby Valley.
I don't know what the solution can be.

 

[Red Fox]

I am having a hard time to understand what is going on. I do agree the Indians got a raw deal and yes some treaties were broken as soon as they were made. But how do we move forward, or what date in time do we go back to as some tribes killed off others to take the land as well. At some point we need to stop looking back and start looking forward before we crash

 

[VikingsGuy]

I don't know what the solution can be.
View attachment 146371

I am having a hard time to understand what is going on. I do agree the Indians got a raw deal and yes some treaties were broken as soon as they were made. But how do we move forward, or what date in time do we go back to as some tribes killed off others to take the land as well. At some point we need to stop looking back and start looking forward before we crash

I don’t know what the solution should be, but the courts yet again told us the 2 viable paths forward - (a) on-going cooperation between the states and the tribes; or (b) congressional legislation. I am glad that Gorsuch rejected the third and often favored expedient approach - non-Indians get to ignore their promises, agreements and the law and do what ever they unilaterally want.

 

[VikingsGuy]

At some point we need to stop looking back and start looking forward before we crash

I agree we need to move forward, but I believe on most topics moving forward successfully requires an accurate sense of where you are and how you got there.

OK just ignoring the legal status of Indian lands is not “looking forward”, it is self serving ignorance of their current status.

Now that OK is forced to understand the land and laws Congress has given it, OK can now begin to move forward. We will see if they have a plan.

 

[LopeHunter]

America will survive. Reservations will likely survive, but not thrive, no matter what additional preferences and subsidies are awarded. Having friends that grew up on Western reservations, they have minimal interest in ever living there again and prefer to expose their children to the tribal traditions with home-schooling rather than on-reservation immersion. Most casinos are even managed by 3rd parties. Reservations are typically not job creators. Hard to be optimistic that the chaos of restoring treaties signed by people dead for decades will create any winners.

 

[manitou1]

So, my forefathers hunted this country freely, without seasons, regulations, or permits. Does this mean I am also allowed to do so?
Times have changed, social norms have changed laws have been made to maintain society.

 

[VikingsGuy]

So, my forefathers hunted this country freely, without seasons, regulations, or permits. Does this mean I am also allowed to do so?
Times have changed, social norms have changed laws have been made to maintain society.

Yup and those modernizations have been made via proper legal processes and with respect for property rights and borders. Indians should expect no different. Absolutely nothing prevents continued change and modernization via lawful processes. What OK did was against the law - no matter how inconvenient OK may find that truth.

It’s amazing to me the typically strong property rights folks, law abiding folks, constitutional textualist folks are happy to throw those principles away when dealing with others of different races, nationalities and religions.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

I say we we invade something and go to war again. Always helps a lot.

 

[Hammsolo]

Yup and those modernizations have been made via proper legal processes and with respect for property rights and borders. Indians should expect no different. Absolutely nothing prevents continued change and modernization via lawful processes. What OK did was against the law - no matter how inconvenient OK may find that truth.

It’s amazing to me the typically strong property rights folks, law abiding folks, constitutional textualist folks are happy to throw those principles away when dealing with others of different races, nationalities and religions.

We (including me) as humans struggle to see the world through others‘ lenses. Some of us act like this was long ago. It’s the same argument I hear when people discuss racism in other areas also. I think it’s important to look back at the facts and learn our history. Most don’t know that the estimates are that around 90% of natives were killed during Western expansion. Most don’t realize that Stone Mountain in Georgia was commemorated on the 100th Anniversary of Lincoln’s assassination in 1965. Shit I was just in Eastern Montana and pondered how natives in Lame Deer feel about the Custer National Forest. If you were them what would you truly want and feel was right?

 

[VikingsGuy]

For a country that has secured every square mile of its existence through Treaties you would think we would be very much in favor of strong Treaties lasting forever.

If it is now convenient can the UK ignore the Treaty of Paris and take back the Eastern US, can Spain take back Florida because it is looking forward and not being held back by silly old treaties? What about France setting aside an old musty Louisiana Purchase Treaty? Maybe Mexico should view the the treaty that granted us the southwest as no longer modern enough to be relevant - heck things change.

 

[Sytes]

It's interesting to think presidents have terminated treaties. Carter and Bush.
The Supreme Court refused to hear both...

 

[azelkhntr]

Its an interesting decision. Gorsuch: Today we are asked whether the land these treaties promised remains an Indian reservation for purposes of federal criminal law,” Gorsuch wrote. “Because Congress has not said otherwise, we hold the government to its word.” Congress can change this if they desire. Since the decision is limited to judicial jurisdiction I don't see much changing. Let them build their own courts, prisons etc. just so long as the American taxpayers aren't paying for it. God help you if you get arrested on the rez now.

 

[Hem]

We cant give back land.
But we can TRY to understand a different way of looking at life AND the natural world.
It's an idealistic opinion ....but only from the eyes of a whitey.

 

[VikingsGuy]

just so long as the American taxpayers aren't paying for it.

It may come as a surprise to you, but Native Americans are federal taxpayers.

 

[MTGomer]

It’s a tough situation with no good answers.
Treaties have to be honored so long as they exist.
There should be some serious conversations on whether or not they should continue to exist in their current form.
Who do they benefit? They sure don’t benefit the United States. Most of them absolutely don’t benefit the vast majority of tribal members that should be helped by them.
These treaties allow the US government to keep their foot on the back of the Indian’s head, taking away their sovereignty by maintaining control via trust authority over almost everything tribally owned.
Indians are the unhealthiest people in the country. The US government is responsible via IHS for their healthcare.
They are among the least educated as well. The US government is responsible for their education.
They have the highest unemployment. The BIA dictates almost all on reservation development.
I would support anything that gives tribes more control over their destiny, and US bureaucrats, less.

Sadly, tribal governments, just like our state and federal governments are corruptible and many of them are quite corrupt, often to the detriment of their own people. These people are powerless and just trying to survive the day to day. They live in conditions that are as sad as anything you’ve seen on TV in a third world country.

I don’t know what the answer is to any of it, but if you’ve never spent time on a reservation beyond going to the gift shop or the casino, you should if ever given the chance. Whatever you think you know, might change a little bit.