Thoughts on the anti-hunting movement

[Ben Lamb]

While I definitely won’t argue against habitat being the biggest concern, I feel like I have recently read about a study noting significantly lowered pregnancy rates in elk herds with heavy wolf pressure...might have even seen it here, but since I can’t remember for sure, I might also be talking out my ass.

I would assume that increased harassment of elk during winter would lead to some loss of calves, but again, if cows are healthy going into winter (habitat) and have secure escape cover (habitat) they can rely on eons of evolutionary conditioning to avoid predation.

The Absoroka-Elk ecology project out of Wyoming was pretty clear that wolves aren't necessarily pushing elk around, so much as following elk that are moving to select the best forage, which in that study area, meant selecting higher protein crops than what was available on public lands.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Maybe it's different out west with other fish. But in the east of you have a Brook trout stream with say a 7 inch minimum, the research shows that in less than 5 years the stream is nearly depleted of trout. That same stream is sustainable for generations under catch and release regs. I have no specific research paper to cite but I have dozens of special reg streams that are fine versus an equivalent number of unprotected stream that must be stocked to maintain a trout fishery.

The fishing pressure is so ridiculous on many CO river's that without stocking the rivers would be depleted of trout just from catch and release kills.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

The fishing pressure is so ridiculous on many CO river's that without stocking the rivers would be depleted of trout just from catch and release kills.

A catch a release stream that is stocked?

Something doesn't add up. If the examples given in this thread are even close to true, then how can a stream even exist in a park like Yellowstone?

 

[TwistedSage]

Maybe it's different out west with other fish. But in the east of you have a Brook trout stream with say a 7 inch minimum, the research shows that in less than 5 years the stream is nearly depleted of trout. That same stream is sustainable for generations under catch and release regs. I have no specific research paper to cite but I have dozens of special reg streams that are fine versus an equivalent number of unprotected stream that must be stocked to maintain a trout fishery.

My comment was directed more at popular western trout fisheries. Also my experience back east which isn't much really just delaware river tributaries that those 50 fish days are not common by any stretch and not as many fishermen so mortality rates may show catch and release to be the better management practice on those waters.

That's just me shooting from the hip and I'll fall back on @RockinU previous statement.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

A catch a release stream that is stocked?

Something doesn't add up. If the examples given in this thread are even close to true, then how can a stream even exist in a park like Yellowstone?

Not what I actually said. Many of the rivers have limits, but even if you made them catch and release only they would still need to be stocked.

How do you think it's possible that people catch brown trout in the United States?

Also...

Crowd-control plan for Madison River rejected

The plan looked to limit commercial fishing guides on the Madison River that flows out of Yellowstone National Park.

www.greatfallstribune.com

 

[onpoint]

Not what I actually said.

How do you think it's possible that people catch brown trout in the United States?

Also...

Crowd-control plan for Madison River rejected

The plan looked to limit commercial fishing guides on the Madison River that flows out of Yellowstone National Park.

www.greatfallstribune.com

Wllm......

You stated earlier that you didn't know a lot about fishing.
Evident.
Brown Trout do - and quite well, I might add - reproduce naturally in America's trout streams (where the habitat adequately supports). Montana, for example, DOES NOT stock trout in rivers.

And as for the Madison River rec plan - I doubt you will find anyone on here who knows more about that than me. It is a poster child for the dysfunction that currently exists - at all levels - in the management ROFLMAO
of our sportsmens/womens resources.

Probably don't want to use that example in any topic about addressing anything correctly - unless it's the bad example. And so much has happened since that old article...............=

Maybe stick to the stuff "we" "know" about..............................

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Wllm......

You stated earlier that you didn't know a lot about fishing.
Evident.

I did please educate sir.

Would love to know why trout fishing is essentially the public land canned pheasant hunt of the west, with elk license dollars going to tossing fish out of planes around the state.

 

[JLS]

The most significant increase in use has been by out-of-state tourists, with about three-quarters of the anglers along the upper portion of the river near Yellowstone from out of state, according to a draft environmental study by the department.

Sounds like the Missouri Breaks archery elk hunts of old.

 

[onpoint]

You're digging yourself a deeper hole.
PR Money goes for wildlife. DJ money goes for fisheries. Elk license $$ don't pay for fish "tossing" (in MT , I'll stick to what I know) . Do some research.
Maybe get back to the wildlife/hunting topic............
There isn't enough time, patience, nor interest in the Madison issue to bother - I'm not gonna' write a book on here, which is what it would take. Suffice to say, it's FUBAR.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

You're digging yourself a deeper hole.
PR Money goes for wildlife. DJ money goes for fisheries. Elk license $$ don't pay for fish "tossing" (in MT , I'll stick to what I know) . Do some research.
Maybe get back to the wildlife/hunting topic............
There isn't enough time, patience, nor interest in the Madison issue to bother - I'm not gonna' write a book on here, which is what it would take. Suffice to say, it's FUBAR.

Sorry I was referring to CO not MT, I was not being clear and made it confusing but talking about both states in my post.

I just find stocking non-natives a bit interesting... sure goats, moose, and turkey's have a dubious history in CO as well... I dk... I don't know how I feel about it. Fishing just has some bizarre practice for me to grapple with.

Couldn't find a CO video, but they apparently used a similar approach.

 

[jerm8352]

I'm still trying to understand how a Judge in Montana can stop a legal hunt in Wyoming. The Judge the anti's selected in Montana was an Obama appointee.....figures.

Exactly my point. All it takes is an activist judge in an anti hunting friendly place to put a stop to hunting. And we literally have social media people bullying corporations into adopting far left ideologies. It won’t be long and there will be serious repercussions on hunting rights.

 

[Ben Lamb]

CO sells more fishing licenses than hunting licenses. In fact, most states have more revenue generated from fishing licenses than from hunting licenses. NR license prices on both fishing & hunting tend to make up roughly 70% of all license revenue. Not sure of the specific numbers for CO, but fishing is ranked much higher in user days than hunting is, so it may be a case of fishing license dollars supporting elk, rather than the other way around. Maybe @Oak or someone from CO has a better breakdown of CPW's budget?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

CO sells more fishing licenses than hunting licenses. In fact, most states have more revenue generated from fishing licenses than from hunting licenses. NR license prices on both fishing & hunting tend to make up roughly 70% of all license revenue. Not sure of the specific numbers for CO, but fishing is ranked much higher in user days than hunting is, so it may be a case of fishing license dollars supporting elk, rather than the other way around. Maybe @Oak or someone from CO has a better breakdown of CPW's budget?

NR Elk tags are king in Colorado, and big game dwarfs fishing.

All Colorado Fishing Licenses


Colorado Elk

 

[Pelican]

it may be a case of fishing license dollars supporting elk, rather than the other way around.

Unfortunately this isn’t the case in CO, which is why we can’t seem to wean CPW off the NR OTC elk tag teat.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Cool. Thanks for the correction. I couldn't find the info you posted.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Cool. Thanks for the correction. I couldn't find the info you posted.

Yeah I had to file a CORA (FOIA) request to get it so... not surprised

You raise an excellent point about participation though, fishing gets way more people in the outdoors, and is often the gate way to the hunting. Therefore there is a strong argument to subsidicing fishing to help us get support for hunting.

BOOM back to the point at hand. Did you see that full circle... my work here is done.

 

[one ate E grain]

Someone said, "as far as actual wildlife management, killing predators to boost or maintain game populations on terrestrial wildlife is an issue that's not backed by any credible science nor by any agency that's actually done the work and seen the results"

Aldo wrote a book, it has an entire chapter (Chapter 10) on the issue, he calls those who would advocate no predator management "unscientific" and on a par with those who'd wipe out all predators. Canada has a very active wolf culling operation right now as they try to save the woodland caribou which we in the US allowed to go extinct here because it would have required shooting predators and maybe the alternate prey they exist on.

Some people worship Sir Aldo's every word as long as it can be misconstrued to advocate not shooting wolves, I have a seldom published, maybe never, photo of Aldo Starker Leopold with the Mexican Wolf he had just harvested. Should I post it? I asked permission already from the University at Madison who maintains the archives of his writings and photos.

Hunting will be curtailed in every state, there's a "Cecil" bill on the house side now. Anti hunting becomes the normal way to be as fewer people all the time have any connections to farm life and are further removed from nature. Assisting anti hunters will be the very obvious hunters looking to suck up to anti hunters, afraid of the reproach of their Patagonia peer group, telling us what kinds of words to use, what kind of hunting is acceptable, what is unethical, the SJWs of the hunting world. First the charismatic large predators, then smaller ones, (bobcat, fox, yote). Then all hunting. Look at the municipalities overrun with deer that won't allow bow hunting, eventually that will be entire states, then the country.

Remember, there is no balance of nature, no longer taught in university ecology courses. We live in the anthropocene, without wildlife management you get things like the woodland caribou extinction.

Politically, you can vote for the party that is more receptive to hunting and guns, but then there's health care and budget deficits and a whole bunch of other issues, and parties aren't all uniform in what they support, just as there are anti choice Dems there are also People like Jonathan Turley the conservative constitutional scholar who posts every anti hunting outrage when it goes viral.

Hunt while you can, it's going away, with a big ol assist from hunters. I'll be dead. I give it 50 years max.

 

[RockinU]

Hunt while you can, it's going away, with a big ol assist from hunters. I'll be dead. I give it 50 years max.

You haven't met my kids... They are brilliant, informed, committed, and they are fighters. Don't be too quick to give up on generations that we haven't seen yet, just do your part to plant the important seeds.

 

[kmott]

Thinking of every conversation in terms of them or us is problematic. Both US political parties are broad coalitions made up of diverse membership often with conflicting views. Even when one party controls everything it's hard to get things done because the membership in those parties don't agree on very much, for many their membership in a party is less about shared views and beliefs as it is getting elected.

Saying one political party wants to take your guns or stop wolf hunting is inaccurate, there are a group of individuals who want to do this certainly, but not everyone or even a majority of those tend to vote democratic hold those views. Similarly, it would be inaccurate to say that republicans want to destroy the environment, certainly there are members who want to gut the EPA and the like, but Nixon was the president who created the EPA and devoted a third of his state of the union address to environmental protection.

I'm not advocating you vote for either party, but try to think beyond the parties. Look at specific candidates and evaluate their platform and vote for the one that aligns most with your values, don't worry about the name of the party. This is especially important on the local level.

while I agree 100% one should look to the candidate and not the party. it has been the experience of my entire life that I have yet to see a democrat candidate worthy of my vote.

that said, most REPUBS FALL far short also but at least with them I have a few things in common.

the dem platform is completely alien to my beliefs.

 

[kmott]

You haven't met my kids... They are brilliant, informed, committed, and they are fighters. Don't be too quick to give up on generations that we haven't seen yet, just do your part to plant the important seeds.

there are certainly some brilliant kids rising up. every generation thinks the next is lacking, it is a human condition that has never and will never ,change .

but it is not so much about their brilliance as it is about the next generations lack of interest in hunting. while there are still many youngsters who live to hunt , it is simply not as prevelent as it was just a generation ago. less interest in the sport and the never ending attacks from the left , WILL end hunting and gun ownership. they almost had it done . only trumps miraculous rise , stemmed it off for a time. but the left will regain control again in the near future and the crazy will never stop. I think it might be possible that hunting will continue until after my demise but it certainly will not last much longer .

we live in a society that doesn't much care if the rights of others are tread on ,so long as our own are not. this will be huntings and our nations demise.

there is a circle of life that all great powers follow. it has been so throughout the history of mankind!

From bondage to spiritual faith,
From spiritual faith to great courage,
From courage to liberty,
From liberty to abundance,
From abundance to selfishness,
From selfishness to complacency,
From complacency to apathy,
From apathy to dependency,
From dependency back again to bondage."

we are in the dependency stage.