The Nuge Speaks ..... again.

[noharleyyet]

Ok, so MT has game farms like most other states where you can shoot most domestic animals from bison to phesants but your not allowed to shoot deer or elk so that makes MT better than TX. Did I understand you correctly?

Seems to me like MT has problems just like other states. People on this board constantly complain about the FWP mamagement of the Elk population in MT. MT has problems selling thier general elk tags even though most on this board claim MT has by far the best elk season in the country. If it's the best why can't they sell their tags? Why do many people who draw elk tags in MT return them? That kinda makes MT the thanks but no thanks elk hunting state. One of the reasons for their lagging tag sales is the huge price increases for NR's in the last few years and the creation of MT native hunting tags. I keep hoping WY would do the same thing with native tags but WY lawmakers are not that stupid. Honestly MT FWP masterminded propably one of the worst wildlife sting operations in the history of US wildlife departments that led to a 200" ram being killed and no convictions. The funny thing is that nobody on this pro Montana board seemed to care after the truth started to come out and none of the convictions stuck. People in MT constantly make fun of corn flingers that other states allow but seem to have no problem when the buckmasters crew shows up to hunt food plots in eastern MT or shooting elk on alfalfa fields outside Bozeman. Every state has their own wildlife management problems and MT is no different, don't let them fool you Lone Star Outdoors. .

..harshin' SS's sanctimony buzz.

 

[Tom]

That picture that keeps being posted of me is with an Asiatic water buffalo, not a steer. High fences can be a huge success. I've seen them and read about them being used in Wyoming even. Texas supports lots of hunting. We have about as much high fenced land as public land, last I read.

Its my understanding the biggest problem in the US for people hunting is having the time to do it. Something like the good high fence management here helps solve that problem, not contribute to it.

Taking a youth hunting, introducing someone new to hunting, that would go a long way toward stopping hunting from dieing, if that's what you're interested in.

I'll agree Ted Nugent is better at defending the 2nd amendment than he is at defending hunting, but I think he's better than most at both.

 

[shoots-straight]

Ok, so MT has game farms like most other states where you can shoot most domestic animals from bison to phesants but your not allowed to shoot deer or elk so that makes MT better than TX. Did I understand you correctly]

Iam not sure you understood anything I've said. Show me on one of my posts where I said anything to suggest that.

Though we are doing many things right, I never suggested that we were living in management shangri la. Feel free to post where I"ve claimed anything of that order. We definitely have our problems, and those have to do with the private lands, public wildlife conflicts we're having. We complain more about our legislature trying to privatize our wildlife, and also the laws enacted to reduce our big game populations.

You miss all that. Because your only coming up with about half the truth.

One of the reasons for their lagging tag sales is the huge price increases for NR's in the last few years and the creation of MT native hunting tags. I keep hoping WY would do the same thing with native tags but WY lawmakers are not that stupid.

Montana's tags aren't high priced. Wyoming's' cost more for the good tag, and about equal for the other. We sit right in the middle of the western states offering tags. Where we're in trouble, is all the extra tags available. We really shouldn't be giving out so many NR tags. Period. We don't have the game.

As far as ranch hunts go,you can't hunt but only Buffalo, cattle, and birds on ranches. That's it. No exotics what so ever. So the proliferation for game farms isn't going to happen. More important winter ranges won't be high fenced for that application.

I was making the point that Lone star was part of the problem, with respect to hogs running amok. Corn fingers and hunting operations transplanting hogs have let to the huge increase that's taken place. Did you read the info I posted.

You can't hunt wolves with infra red night vision. You can hunt coyotes though.
Not sure either fit in the North American model, but what do you care?

People in MT constantly make fun of corn flingers that other states allow but seem to have no problem when the buckmasters crew shows up to hunt food plots in eastern MT or shooting elk on alfalfa fields outside Bozeman. Every state has their own wildlife management problems and MT is no different, don't let them fool you Lone Star Outdoors. .

Food plots are illegal in Montana too. Where has anyone from this board condoned the use of food plots for hunting, and where has anyone said it's OK what Buckmasters crew does? That's the whole point of this thread. Nuge and his type of hunting, and foot in mouth disease. Maybe you missed that too.

You like to make chit up. Is it a reading comprehension thing or are you drunk?

 

[wyoming556]

Iam not sure you understood anything I've said. Show me on one of my posts where I said anything to suggest that.

Though we are doing many things right, I never suggested that we were living in management shangri la. Feel free to post where I"ve claimed anything of that order. We definitely have our problems, and those have to do with the private lands, public wildlife conflicts we're having. We complain more about our legislature trying to privatize our wildlife, and also the laws enacted to reduce our big game populations.

You miss all that. Because your only coming up with about half the truth.



Montana's tags aren't high priced. Wyoming's' cost more for the good tag, and about equal for the other. We sit right in the middle of the western states offering tags. Where we're in trouble, is all the extra tags available. We really shouldn't be giving out so many NR tags. Period. We don't have the game.

As far as ranch hunts go,you can't hunt but only Buffalo, cattle, and birds on ranches. That's it. No exotics what so ever. So the proliferation for game farms isn't going to happen. More important winter ranges won't be high fenced for that application.

I was making the point that Lone star was part of the problem, with respect to hogs running amok. Corn fingers and hunting operations transplanting hogs have let to the huge increase that's taken place. Did you read the info I posted.

You can't hunt wolves with infra red night vision. You can hunt coyotes though.
Not sure either fit in the North American model, but what do you care?



Food plots are illegal in Montana too. Where has anyone from this board condoned the use of food plots for hunting, and where has anyone said it's OK what Buckmasters crew does? That's the whole point of this thread. Nuge and his type of hunting, and foot in mouth disease. Maybe you missed that too.

You like to make chit up. Is it a reading comprehension thing or are you drunk?

Make chit up? What did I make up? Montana can't sell all their NR elk tags. Montana has many elk tags returned. Montana native hunting license hurts NR license sales and FWP budget. FWP ram sting was completely botched. Bushman and crew hunt whitetails over crops/food plots in MT. It is legal to hunt over crops but illegal to bait with corn in MT. Enlighten me with your knowledge on one of those 6 points I originally made please!

Drunk? Wish I was. Half Truth? Thanks for going personal and name calling. Figured you'd do that instead of talking about any facts on the 6 points I made.

 

[spook12]

SS you guys really didn't ban hunting on game farms . I can come to Montana right now and ''hunt'' a mammal that is recognized as a big game animal in North America ,even your own state has a bison tag, on a game farm.Split hairs all you want about how they are livestock on one side of the fence and big game on the other but i suspect that the average person would consider it a game farm, or canned hunt. Ben you seem to have heartburn with leasing,comparing it to the model in Europe. explain to me how some guys in alabama, mississippi,ect, pooling their money and leasing a piece of ground from some timber co or private individual is a direct assault on the North American model, but a bunch of guys out west pool their money pay it to some private individual call it a walk in area and it becomes some holy ground? Either way we are privatizing wildlife.The land owner is being payed.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Montana can't sell all their NR elk tags. Montana has many elk tags returned. Montana native hunting license hurts NR license sales and FWP budget. FWP ram sting was completely botched. Bushman and crew hunt whitetails over crops/food plots in MT. It is legal to hunt over crops but illegal to bait with corn in MT. Enlighten me with your knowledge on one of those 6 points I originally made please!
.

1.) Correct, MT hasn't sold all of it's tags yet. Let's see what happens at the end of the season though. Also, MT offers more tags than most western states except CO, IIRC. So, I'm not sure that you can use that as a barometer for wildlife management success or not.

2.) Again, you're looking at a product of the legislature where many hunters fought to kill this bill.

3.) A lot of MT sportsmen fought that native bill, and eventually we struck a deal to let it go through for some consideration from the sponsor. We got screwed on that. Also, remember that most of us who worked at the legislature had over 200 bills we were tracking and working on. Compared to the other bills, this one was not as high a priority. Hopefully in 2013, we'll have enough data to show what these licenses have done overall to the 17,000 NR draw for the deer/elk combo.

4.) FWP Ram sting was what it was. Some could argue that the Jury wasn't amenable to FWP, others would dispute. Show me any agency who gets it right 100% of the time.

5.) Bushman, etc hunting over food plots and crops isn't illegal. I'm not a fan of food plots, but I've shot plenty of whitetail in an alfalfa meadow. Those deer, however, have the opportunity to escape. Not so in a high fence.

6.) Hunting over crops is different than bait piles. Bait is designed to draw critters in with the specific intention of killing them. Ag land is just that, ag land. I've sat on the edge of a lot of fields and not had one deer within 20 acres of me. I'm sure that the same could be said of sitting over feeders, but again, the biggest difference is that the ag land isn't there to attract wildlife.

The difference with the things you present, and what we're talking about in regards to other states is this: MT sportsmen still fight to maintain high opportunity and conserved landscapes. MT sportsmen also refuse to be fed the scraps of leftover wildlife.

 

[shoots-straight]

Make chit up? What did I make up? Montana can't sell all their NR elk tags. Montana has many elk tags returned. Montana native hunting license hurts NR license sales and FWP budget. FWP ram sting was completely botched. Bushman and crew hunt whitetails over crops/food plots in MT. It is legal to hunt over crops but illegal to bait with corn in MT. Enlighten me with your knowledge on one of those 6 points I originally made please!

Drunk? Wish I was. Half Truth? Thanks for going personal and name calling. Figured you'd do that instead of talking about any facts on the 6 points I made.

It's that reading comp thing going for you.

Things your making up:
1).

People on this board constantly complain about the FWP mamagement of the Elk population in MT.

We complain about our legislature getting involved. That's the agency that's managing our ELk herds.
2).

So Montana residents/businesses support game farms in neighboring states by buying/selling/consuming the elk meat but they don't allow game farms in the state so they are better?

You have any facts to back that up. I see Buffalo burgers by not much on the elk.
3).

Ok, so MT has game farms like most other states where you can shoot most domestic animals from bison to phesants but your not allowed to shoot deer or elk so that makes MT better than TX.

No Montana doens't have game farms like any other state. We don't allow exotics species. There not much of a reason to have Elk and Deer operations if you can't hunt off them. Where did I say Montana was better. I think we have a better system as a whole. So there I said it now.
4).

One of the reasons for their lagging tag sales is the huge price increases for NR's in the last few years and the creation of MT native hunting tags

For 5500 Nr, the tags are cheaper, and the rest right in line with other states. There's just too many offered.
5).

People in MT constantly make fun of corn flingers that other states allow but seem to have no problem when the buckmasters crew shows up to hunt food plots in eastern MT or shooting elk on alfalfa fields outside Bozeman.

Food plots are illegal. They must be planted for harvest. Although it's a tough call, and I don't know if anyone has been arrested. The practice of planting food plots for hunting wildlife is considered baiting in Montana, and illegal. Do you get that, or what to keep making chit up like I said?

Make chit up? What did I make up? Montana can't sell all their NR elk tags. Montana has many elk tags returned. Montana native hunting license hurts NR license sales and FWP budget. FWP ram sting was completely botched. Bushman and crew hunt whitetails over crops/food plots in MT. It is legal to hunt over crops but illegal to bait with corn in MT. Enlighten me with your knowledge on one of those 6 points I originally made please!

Drunk? Wish I was. Half Truth? Thanks for going personal and name calling. Figured you'd do that instead of talking about any facts on the 6 points I made.

Like I said before, you like to speak in half truths, and where did I ever call you a name? I asked "

You like to make chit up. Is it a reading comprehension thing or are you drunk

Is there any name calling in that sentence?

 

[Ben Lamb]

SS you guys really didn't ban hunting on game farms . I can come to Montana right now and ''hunt'' a mammal that is recognized as a big game animal in North America ,even your own state has a bison tag, on a game farm.Split hairs all you want about how they are livestock on one side of the fence and big game on the other but i suspect that the average person would consider it a game farm, or canned hunt. Ben you seem to have heartburn with leasing,comparing it to the model in Europe. explain to me how some guys in alabama, mississippi,ect, pooling their money and leasing a piece of ground from some timber co or private individual is a direct assault on the North American model, but a bunch of guys out west pool their money pay it to some private individual call it a walk in area and it becomes some holy ground? Either way we are privatizing wildlife.The land owner is being payed.

The Bison you are shooting on a ranch in MT are not legally classified as wildlife. They are livestock. Big difference.

As for leasing, it creates more problems than it solves. Look at the situation in central and eastern MT in regards to elk populations and political fallout. If it's all leased, you can't get on to fill your tag. If the tags don't get filled, then your herd grows. Exclusivity creates it's own monsters. That's where walkin areas, etc are different. It's the democratic allocation of the resource, i.e. everyone is on equal footing.

Yes, you are still paying for access. The difference comes down to who is accessing what, and what the motivation is behind it. For the record, I'm not opposed to leasing, I just don't think people should look at it beyond what it is: exclusion of other people with consequences that nobody wants to talk about.

 

[shoots-straight]

SS you guys really didn't ban hunting on game farms . I can come to Montana right now and ''hunt'' a mammal that is recognized as a big game animal in North America ,even your own state has a bison tag, on a game farm.Split hairs all you want about how they are livestock on one side of the fence and big game on the other but i suspect that the average person would consider it a game farm, or canned hunt.

Spook, the only native mammal you can come and kill on a game farm is a Bison of sorts. None have Genetically pure blood. You can also hunt birds. All other exotic animals have been banned. Have at it.

Killing just Buffalo on a game farm is a far cry from the exotics and natural species you find in Texas and other states. There's also a big difference between what side of the fence a animal lives. Big difference.

As I said before, It's too bad that you have to resort to leasing lands to hunt on. I feel sorry for you. It's sad. I'm glad you have that opportunity.

 

[spook12]

Guys the fact is that these assaults on the NAM have been going on for a long time all over this country. The western state have been propping up guides and outfitters for decades,makeing sure they have cherry tags to sale. They have primo areas that make you have to decide''do i sale out '' or do i go to my grave knowing i will never hunt some of the finest country on the face of the earth,even though i own some of it too. What could be a clearer example than transferable land owner tags,talk about selling wildlife. Talk about our texas brothers settling for scraps aren't we all? The only dif is the more public land you have the more scraps to go around.Lets not even bring up Utah and what was attempted in Arizona.

 

[shoots-straight]

Guys the fact is that these assaults on the NAM have been going on for a long time all over this country. The western state have been propping up guides and outfitters for decades,makeing sure they have cherry tags to sale. They have primo areas that make you have to decide''do i sale out '' or do i go to my grave knowing i will never hunt some of the finest country on the face of the earth,even though i own some of it too. What could be a clearer example than transferable land owner tags,talk about selling wildlife. Talk about our texas brothers settling for scraps aren't we all? The only dif is the more public land you have the more scraps to go around.Lets not even bring up Utah and what was attempted in Arizona.

True story, it's just that in Montana, as Ben said, we have regained some of the ground we lost in those attacks, and are poised to maybe fix a few more things. We're in a better position that most states. Put it that way.

 

[spook12]

SS never said i leased land . Dont, dont have to.So now we are gonna decide some game farms are o.k others not so much ? aren't the zoo animals in texas livestock and not considered wildlife? So following this line of thought we are cool with shooting bison in montana and pen raised deer in texas as long as we call them livestock.

 

[spook12]

SS, Ben . I think the world of you guys hope i haven't said anything that suggests otherwise.Just seems to me that we all would have a better understanding of the other guys plight if we took the time to listen. Its real easy to find fault in the other guy ,not so easy to find our own. Ben i have a great deal of respect for what i know of your work, but i'm gonna have to disagree with you about leasing. I have no doubt you can point out dozens of examples of it going bad. I however can show you hundreds of families who spend time in the outdoors hunting, building bonds and memories that last forever. I am a hunter because its who i am if i had no place to go except 7 to 10 days a year i'm not sure that's how i would self identify . Have a good one!

 

[wyoming556]

It's that reading comp thing going for you.

Things your making up:
1). We complain about our legislature getting involved. That's the agency that's managing our ELk herds.
2). You have any facts to back that up. I see Buffalo burgers by not much on the elk.
3). No Montana doens't have game farms like any other state. We don't allow exotics species. There not much of a reason to have Elk and Deer operations if you can't hunt off them. Where did I say Montana was better. I think we have a better system as a whole. So there I said it now.
4). For 5500 Nr, the tags are cheaper, and the rest right in line with other states. There's just too many offered.
5). Food plots are illegal. They must be planted for harvest. Although it's a tough call, and I don't know if anyone has been arrested. The practice of planting food plots for hunting wildlife is considered baiting in Montana, and illegal. Do you get that, or what to keep making chit up like I said?



Like I said before, you like to speak in half truths, and where did I ever call you a name? I asked " Is there any name calling in that sentence?

You remind me of Jose, cut and paste some more!

You complaining about FWP tag #'s proves my point #1 exactly, Thanks for the help.

Do you really think there are no restaurants in MT that serve Elk? Be Honest.

IF MT plays games calling some elk livestock instead of game that's fine but it doesn't change what's really going on. MT has farms with "Livestock" from Buffalo, elk, goats, sheep, phesant, quail, who pose health threats to native animals. Sheep are a prime example of what can happen and has happened in MT.

MT set a price and quantity for their tags and the market did not agree last year and so far this year looks like a repeat. You can argue all you want about other states but until MT can sell all their tags they are outpricing the market, period.

I don't think many states actualy enforce the use of ag land for baiting purposes including MT. Kinda hard to prove in court that a farmer purposely missed that row of corn. If you don't think baiting with ag land goes on in MT you aren't being realistic.

Remember MT does not have Elk farms! LMAO!
http://www.montanaelk.com/

So these elk farms in MT that slaughter elk are ok but the ones in TX where you shoot a gun to kill the elk are completely bad for wildlife. You MT guys are a bunch of Hypocrites. Sitting around bashing others when you do 99% of the same thing with your elk farms is hilarious.

 

[Lone Star Outdoors Show]

The point of the nit picking is to show your character, and the fact the Texans are to blame for this.

and you attacking the character of someone you have never met not have any idea of is why I clearly don't fit in here. I will continue to support and enjoy Randy' s show but clearly you can't relate to the ways things are in Texas and never will. I own a part of a hunting forum and we welcome all folks from every walk of life. I thought this was a great site but clearly my kind is far from welcome. good luck and happy hunting. Sincerely

 

[shoots-straight]

SS never said i leased land . Dont, dont have to.So now we are gonna decide some game farms are o.k others not so much ? aren't the zoo animals in texas livestock and not considered wildlife? So following this line of thought we are cool with shooting bison in montana and pen raised deer in texas as long as we call them livestock.

No, we're not ok with any game farm. No where does hunting game farms follow the NAM. I told you we took back some of the ground we lost, not all of it. Bison are in limbo in Montana for the most part. If and when we get free ranging Bison back that could change the whole thing. It would be hard to ban the hunting of bison on game farms right now.

Great you don't have to to lease.

 

[wyoming556]

No, we're not ok with any game farm.

Interesting you claimed no game farms and no exotics in MT. I didn't realize Artic Wolves and Siberian Lynx were native. Pen raised whitetails. So shooting pen raised whitetails in MT with a camera is OK but shooting pen raised whitetails in TX with a gun is BAD.

http://www.tripledgamefarm.com/

 

[spook12]

SS bison aren't really in limbo in Montana, they are being bought and shot on game farms. I have no doubt that getting rid of game farms is going to be hard for you guys,just like getting rid of them in Texas would be.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Spook, a healthy debate is a great thing. We've certainly had that. Food for thought on all sides to be sure.

 

[shoots-straight]

You complaining about FWP tag #'s proves my point #1 exactly, Thanks for the help.

Comprehension, Comprehension, come on man, read the damn thing. I said the Legislature is managing our Elk. The FW&P's are a separate state agency. They are the professionals. Legislators are elected lawmakers.You understand the difference?

Do you really think there are no restaurants in MT that serve Elk? Be Honest.

I'm sure there is, I just don't know of one, do you? The point was that Montanans support game farms by eating ranched elk. I said prove it. You suppose there's 3 or 4 elk butchered a year for this purpose. Show some facts.

Montana banned hunting on Game farms, they couldn't ban them outright as they were already in existence. Would have been harder to do. There's many game farms that went away after the law went into effect.

Sheep aren't effected by game farms, their effected by domestic sheep. Livestock have historically transmitted deadly viruses to wild animals in Montana. Whole other story.

MT set a price and quantity for their tags and the market did not agree last year and so far this year looks like a repeat. You can argue all you want about other states but until MT can sell all their tags they are out pricing the market, period.

I could care less about other states. Montana's prices are right in line. The last year before the increase, sales of the OSL didn't sell out. It our elk herds that are lacking not the price. Also the perception that wolves killed all the elk here. Hell sales of resident elk tags, which are $20 have decreased in sales for the last 3 years in a row. In fact all sales of tags, from fishing to bird hunting have slid for the last 3. Doesn't matter if it's resident or Non resident. How's the sales in Idaho? Wyoming?
Anybody check on but the economy might have something to do with the lagging tag sales.

I don't think many states actualy enforce the use of ag land for baiting purposes including MT. Kinda hard to prove in court that a farmer purposely missed that row of corn. If you don't think baiting with ag land goes on in MT you aren't being realistic.

Add that to number 6 of the things you make up.

Remember MT does not have Elk farms! LMAO!
http://www.montanaelk.com/

That be number 7. Did I ever say Montana does not have Elk farms?
Wow! Comprehension, Comprehension.

So these elk farms in MT that slaughter elk are ok but the ones in TX where you shoot a gun to kill the elk are completely bad for wildlife. You MT guys are a bunch of Hypocrites. Sitting around bashing others when you do 99% of the same thing with your elk farms is hilarious.

I don't think we ever mentioned them. As far as effecting the NAM, there way better. I don't think many sportsman like them. As I said before, if you were paying attention, we couldn't ban game farms outright, they were already established. We had to work the system by banning hunting on them.

Hilarious is your reading skills.