The FS under GW Bush

BuzzH

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Looks like the FS and the TAXPAYERS are taking a beating under the guidance of Shrub...what a shock. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Forest Service Becoming Rogue Agency
Forty-Four Recent Court Rulings Find Environmental Lawbreaking

WASHINGTON -- February 17 -- The U.S. Forest Service lost 44 court cases during the past two years in which the agency was found guilty of violating environmental laws by a federal court, according to an internal memo released today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER). The rate of adverse court findings has been steadily growing with each passing year of the Bush Administration.

The list of 44 cases, covering the period 2003 and 2004 fiscal years, is limited to cases where the court found both that the Forest Service violated the law and that its position could not be “substantially justified.” In those instances, the agency was ordered to pay the attorney fees of the environmental group bringing the lawsuit. As a result, the Forest Service made payments to environmental groups totaling $2.2 million over the last two years.

“More than once every two weeks, the Forest Service is found by a federal judge to be violating the very laws it is supposed to be enforcing,” stated PEER Executive Director Jeff Ruch. “The Forest Service is becoming a rogue agency.”

The agency figures point to a growing rate of court rulings against the agency, with 27 adverse rulings in FY 04 and 17 adverse rulings in FY 03. An online search of federal court decisions in cases where the Forest Service was a defendant showed 10 adverse rulings in 2002 and only 4 in 2001. The totals for prior years were even smaller with the highest total for any year back to 1994 being 3 adverse rulings.

“More disturbing than the rulings is the fact that not a single Forest Service manager has been disciplined or suffered any negative career consequences for committing environmental violations,” added Ruch, noting that these cases involve deliberate violations where a federal court has found that the agency acted in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. “In other words, the Forest Service rewards its line managers for breaking the law – a posture not that distinct from the Mafia’s.”

The cases grow out of illegal logging operations, over-grazing violations and mining claims within national forests. Every region in the country, except the southeast, reported cases, with the most coming out of the region covering Idaho and Montana, and the region covering Oregon and Washington.

The list of 44 cases understates the extent of violations by the Forest Service in that it does not include cases that were settled by the agency in order to avoid adverse rulings. Nor does it include cases that were thrown out on technical grounds even though substantive environmental violations occurred.

###
 
I don't know, but PEER sound like they can also be like a GREENPEACE. I don't think all this crap happened just since Bush has been in office, but very well could have been going on for many years, and finally a group has formed, PEERS, and all this crap comes up.

Not that it is wrong, absolutely not. The enviroment is very important without a doubt, but I think blaming everything wrong in America and the world on Bush is just plain BS.
 
Hey Elkhunter,

You're wrong...44 cases in the last two years under GW's watch. He is the CIC and is to blame, simple as that. If he was worth a crap at his job, he'd put the brakes on the line officers that arent doing their jobs. Kind of hard to do that though, when you're ordering them to break the law. Kind of like the latest piece of shit RMP the Rawlins BLM office just put out...under Shrubs executive order of 18 May 2001 all oil and gas development must be EXPEDITED. Shrubs trying to get around public involvement, NEPA, ESA and a host of other legal obligations. If you want to cut a guy some slack thats breaking the law, thats your business. Personally, I think there needs to be accountability, and unfortunately Shrub has proven beyond any reasonable doubt he'll lie, cheat, and dodge everything.

For your info...PEER is a group of retired government workers mostly FS, BLM and other retired land management types. They work to keep the FS, BLM etc. on the right path.

Oh, and by the way, who would you blame for the FS losing 44 court cases in 2 years?
 
Seems as if I was seeing problems the FS wasn't doing their jobs when I first came on here.
Seems as if it was you Buzz that was stating they just couldn't do what they were supposed to with the over grazing and logging and mining because there was just to much to do and not enough people to enforce it.
Seems now it is all coming to a head, no matter who is in the top office.
Seems it is great fun for you when Marvel is making people pay because they are in the wrong.
Seems now it is on the other foot and is doing nothing but pissing you off that they are being held accountable by the lawsuits to start doing thier job.
Of course I say all of this because I have no "Clue" of what is going on.
I didn't see Bushes name in your article at all. But then again, he is in the top office, so knows every thing that is going on in the Federal Government under his watch.
These people won't have any thing done to them unless there is some big media push to have some thing done to them.
I would blame the Forest Service for losing 44 court cases in the last two years for going beyond their job descriptions, or not doing their jobs in the first place...
Lets lay the blame where it really belongs, that is in the laps of the people that were hired to do the job that we pay them for... :)
I wonder who it is that really doesn't have the clue or is hiding their head in the sand trying to hide from the reality that is starting to close every day around them and they just don't want to see it...
The tides are a changin... ;)
 
Elkchsr- I guess you got something different out of Buzz's posts than I. From where I stand, he's not pissed off for being held accountable, he's pissed off that the USFS lost 44 cases in two years due to
is limited to cases where the court found both that the Forest Service violated the law and that its position could not be “substantially justified.”
That's what I gathered that he's pissed off about. Once you put that with
Shrubs executive order of 18 May 2001 all oil and gas development must be EXPEDITED. Shrubs trying to get around public involvement, NEPA, ESA and a host of other legal obligations.
and you may start to see connection.
 
Cheese,

You dont have a clue thats why you dont "get it"...

The problem is not the line managers "not doing their jobs" the problem is they ARE doing their jobs. Bush is ordering his administration to direct the line officers and their decisions in direct violation of current environmental laws, acts, and policies. Anyone with half a brain can see it...and so can the courts as in their ruling against the FS in 44 cases in 2 years. How can you blame district rangers, forest supervisors, Chief of the FS, and others for doing the job they are TOLD to do by the current administration? They have two choices...do what you're directed to do or we'll give you a nice position in Point Barrow Alaska or force you to take an early retirement. You obviously dont know how political wrangling works in the various Government Agencies. Its not hidden, its been going on for years...just ask John Mumma.

The problem is, land management and land managers are not allowed the luxury of having science dictate policy and CORRECT management. The political sharks shred the very few upper managers with the balls to actually follow the law first, the health of the land second, and political interests third. Thats exactly why they're losing their asses in court. How else do you explain it?

Oh, and either you arent reading the article or you dont comprehend. Its the only explaination for you saying this:"I didn't see Bushes name in your article at all."

Check it out, I even put it in BOLD letters so you wouldnt miss it "The rate of adverse court findings has been steadily growing with each passing year of the Bush Administration."
 
Probably less than the BLM! One thing I think people fail to realize that the money spent on lawsuits is much more than the $2.2 million that were paid directly to the groups. This is where my panties get bunched, because even if the lawsuit is decided/settled in the agencies favor the gov. always (IME) pays the bill for the oppositions lawyers! Just fuel for them to come back next week...
 
I can send pictures if you'd like to see a 265# (yep I'm a fat ass, but don't have an ATV ;)) in a pink thong!!! :D
 
Buzz....
With all the knowledge you have, and this is what it takes to drag it out of you???
That is what I don't get!!!
I don't think I have seen but a dozen posts you have put up that just stated what you see going on, with out having to try and brow beat some one and this thread is no different...
It is really hard to actually sit and read any thing you put out all the way thru most of the time, just because it is laced with so much venom and hatred, and I am only guessing that feeling holds true to "Most" of the people that actually come down here to learn.
 
Cheese,

You dont come down here to learn, thats a fact.

Your mind is made up...I will say though, you are a loyal to the EIB network and the Republican bullshit that you've been spoon fed.

Thats cool, but I found it better to have a mind of my own.

As one of my buddies always says..."love many, trust few, always paddle your own canoe"
 
My goodness sake, a little testy today I see. ;)
I would't say that just because you think one way and I think another, that I have come upon my conclusions by living life as you have any different and the way I see it, you have been spoon fed and sucked up just as much stuff as I have from your own sources... :)
 
Could fix some of the problem with legislation that the claimant has to pay the legal fees to the government if they lose. Lots of dumbass lawsuits by greenies just to clog the system. As for the 44 suits we should see an improvement when Dubya's court appointees start working for the taxpayers.
 
ringer, "when Dubya's court appointees start working for the taxpayers."

Do you want judges to apply the law or just try to save taxpayers money? Think of all the money they'd save us if they just decided never to hear any cases. Maybe you'd rather have them tell you they're not going to schedule your case because it will waste the taxpayers money to have court open that day.
 
IT-I want judges to apply the law but that does not mean interpreting it to fit their liberal tilt. The bad part of our last few judicial decades has been that anyone can sue anyone for anything. I just think if the case goes all the way up and you lose then whether you're the government or an organization you should have some degree of liability for the cost of the process. No free lunch for either side. Fair enough?
 
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