The 2nd Amendment, Gun Control, and Mass Murder

[shoots-straight]

Seems like nobody above really can detail a reason for wanting an AR-15. If there is no "good purpose" to own one, and, they happen to be the preferred weapon for "mass murders", then maybe we need to look at how they are owned/sold/used.

I don't think much of society cares about criminals killing criminals (which is much of this nation's murder rate), but when you start killing kids in classrooms, movie theaters, and shopping malls, then it seems logical that the device used (that nobody above really thinks has any practical use) may need restrictions of some sort.

Perhaps magazine capacity, more extensive background checks, more extensive provenance on subsequent sales. MaybE an annual tax of $2000 per rifle per year to fund WayNe LaPierres armed guards in every school.

Jose, unfortunately the latest generations, say 20 - 40 first introduction to firearms happen to be AR's. They learned how to use them in the military, and not through family members.

So the AR is the weapon of choice for the newest generations that are going to keep hunting a tradition in America. I suppose that when center fire cartridges where invented, that some of the muzzle loader generation commented the same as you.

All the major weapons companies are now making sporter AR's. They are an outstanding predator, and big game rifle. Predator hunting is the fastest growing segment of hunters in the US. The weapon of choice is the AR.

If you look at what happened to Jim Zumbo when he mouthed off that AR's had no business in today's sporting environment you would understand the popularity of that type of weapon.

The other point to the 2ND Amendment is being able to control your government in the event it's gets completely out of control. Weaponry by the civilian populace is a deterrent to that happening.

 

[schmalts]

No, no one, no

 

[The Hedgehog]

I guess tHis thread actually needs a 4th question.
"Is there a problem in the US with too many innocent kids/shoppers/movie goers being gunned down Brian assault weapons?"

This thread doesn't need another question - since I created it. It's about the 2nd amendment, gun control, and mass murder. Not drugs, mental heatlth, gang violence, video games, poverty, shitty parents, or anything else. Most people are good, there's always going to be a subset of crazy, whacked out, drugged out, desparate or evil douchebags that will leave their marks. I think the big picture is the most important.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Regarding the "right," I'm sorry but just because a weapon (or accessory) is out there doesn't mean you have the right to own it.

Actually, I DO have the right to own it and for that I'm pretty glad. When I can't own it, I won't and those that I don't want to own it.. will.

Please show me some facts where gun control (removing the right to own a weapon) has worked for anything..

 

[schmalts]

Please show me some facts where gun control (removing the right to own a weapon) has worked for anything..

That my friend is the million dollar question that too many ignore.

 

[JoseCuervo]

This thread doesn't need another question - since I created it. It's about the 2nd amendment, gun control, and mass murder. Not drugs, mental heatlth, gang violence, video games, poverty, shitty parents, or anything else. Most people are good, there's always going to be a subset of crazy, whacked out, drugged out, desparate or evil douchebags that will leave their marks. I think the big picture is the most important.

Your thread, your rules.

Point being, you are asking about possible solutions without establishing there is a problem.

If it is denied (or agreed) that there is not a problem, then it is simple to get the chorus to all sing the same song, no matter how wrong that song may be.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Jose, just answer the 3 questions of the subject because that's what's on the table in politics and the media right now.

Do you want to surrender any of your 2nd amendment "rights" to protect us against insane killers?

Insane killer are always going to be a problem, with our without assault rifles.

Do you really think the day will never come when times are heinous here in the happy, spoiled rotten USA, like those examples I listed above...

 

[worm]

I've got a Remington R15 in 223. I bought it for coyote hunting and love it. Does that make me a different kind of sportsman or hunter? The R15 replaced a Remington 7400 in a 243 that my grandparents bought me over twenty years ago. Hell of a lot cheaper to shoot as well. What about my ruger 10/22.? Or my fathers old Remington Speed Master in .22?
Jevon Belcher killed his girlfriend then himself and Bob Costas made a public announcement on national tv regarding gun control the next day. The fact is that baby Zoe's mother was taken from this world and her father decided to leave. It's not the gun!!! So my answer is not only no but he'll no.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Jose, one last thing. Being that I know you are smart as hell, respect you and your opinions even though you like to argue and stir the pot almost as much as me.. your opinion and the logic behind it would be definitely appreciated and respected. Maybe not agreed with, but respected.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Jose, just answer the 3 questions of the subject because that's what's on the table in politics and the media right now.

Do you want to surrender any of your 2nd amendment "rights" to protect us against insane killers? if the numbers show we would be significantly safer, and not significantly surrender any rights to gun ownership, sure.

Insane killer are always going to be a problem, with our without assault rifles. not a question, but is an insane killer with an assault rifle a bigger problem than one without? If so, see above.

Do you really think the day will never come when times are heinous here in the happy, spoiled rotten USA, like those examples I listed above.. no, I don't believe we will ever have a dictatorship in my lifetime. I think the constitution has plenty more effective preventions than gun-nuts with ARs to prevent a dictatorship. But, if there isn't, then the dictator will only have raised thru power by controlling the military, and, I don't have a lot of plans to shoot US soldiers. Do you?

.

I


The original questions........

.

What do you think? Should there be a “ban” on legal purchase of an AR15 bushmaster style rifle with high-capacity magazines? if there is a problem, certainly.


Who should be able to define what kind of weapon a civilian should have the right to own? the same people that currently do???? You know, the ones that don't let me have a 17" Barrell on my shotgun, an RPG, or a thermo-nuclear device without limiting any of my rights.

Does the government need to more strictly control/inventory the “arms” civilians bear?

signs are pointing toward yes.

.

Now, can you answer if you think that the US has a problem of too many kids/shoppers/movie goers getting gunned down instead of learning to color and repeat their ABC's?

 

[The Hedgehog]

Jose, you're getting into my way of going wolf hunting. I can answer, yes there's a problem with gun violence. And no, I don't plan on shooting US soldiers. And no, I don't want any more gun ownership restrictions, none, period, ZIP, unless you can show me some facts on how it will solve a problem, or has in past history. You'll be busy with google on that one.. for a long time.

It's okay to agree to disagree, you're for gun control and losing rights to protect us all against insane killers. I'm not. I still like you, and will let you shoot my bushmaster someday.

 

[Big Slick]

Actually, I DO have the right to own it and for that I'm pretty glad. When I can't own it, I won't and those that I don't want to own it.. will.

Please show me some facts where gun control (removing the right to own a weapon) has worked for anything..

Well the tough laws on gun owners in Mexico has worked out well for the cartels!:hump:

 

[RobG]

Actually, I DO have the right to own it and for that I'm pretty glad.

I'm not sure how you can say that. The list of weapons you can't have is greater than the list that you can have.

Please show me some facts where gun control (removing the right to own a weapon) has worked for anything..

How many crimes are committed with fully automatic weapons? If it isn't readily available then it can't be readily used. Drawing the line at weapons that can easily kill dozens of people is reasonable and far less of an infringements on our right than banning certain people from owning all guns.

And yes, an automobile can kill dozens of people, but for some reason Hollywood hasn't glorified it as the answer to all problems with movie after movie so it isn't what pops into people's minds when they fly off the handle. Wish they would require the actors to follow the same rules we do....

 

[RobG]

Well the tough laws on gun owners in Mexico has worked out well for the cartels!:hump:

There really isn't a comparison between Mexico and the U.S. because laws aren't enforced in Mexico.

 

[sreekers]

There really isn't a comparison between Mexico and the U.S. because laws aren't enforced in Mexico.

The executive branch does out all the time, both sides. Defunding is used as a regular practice to push political agendas.

 

[Big Slick]

There really isn't a comparison between Mexico and the U.S. because laws aren't enforced in Mexico.

If that is the case, wouldn't you like to keep it that way?

That's exactly what happens when the bad guys are the only people with guns, with a corrupt government. So you made my point for me, thanks!

 

[RobG]

If that is the case, wouldn't you like to keep it that way?

That's exactly what happens when the bad guys are the only people with guns, with a corrupt government. So you made my point for me, thanks!

Sorry Slick - I did not make your point. In Mexico people with guns are killing rivals (and even police) who also have guns so both sides have guns. It is also believed that most of those guns are coming from the U.S.

 

[RobG]

What really gets me about all of this is that the NRA has everyone all riled up about losing the right to own a 100 round drum that you guys don't even realize what is happening to the 4th. Did you know that if you are within 100 miles of the border the feds can search your vehicle without a warrant or probable cause? That is 2/3 of U.S. citizens that have been stripped of due process. They do that in Montana's wilderness airstrips by the way... bring your papers.

Now the feds have proven that they can assassinate U.S. citizens without due process. They can even monitor what books you check out of the library. NDAA that got through the House allowed the indefinite detention of U.S. citizens without due process. FISA allows wiretaps without warrants. Patriot Act, Real ID, etc. Hello, where is the NRA on these things? They are saying banning high capacity magazines is a slippery slope to fascism. Wake up, the NRA is just fear mongering to bring in money.

The loss of the 4th amendment will get us far before the 2nd. If the government can monitor everything you are doing it won't matter what you are armed with because they will just take it. The ironic thing is that it is the ACLU that is standing up for those rights, and most from the political right characterize them as communists. Wow. That is what bothers me...

 

[Topgun 30-06]

"Hello, where is the NRA on these things? They are saying banning high capacity magazines is a slippery slope to fascism. Wake up, the NRA is just fear mongering to bring in money."


Why don't you read what the NRA was set up to do many moons ago and not state stuff that they have nothing to do with!!! Some of you guys are already saying they have stepped over the line when they got into habitat related stuff and now you've made a list of all kinds of stuff blaming them for not getting involved, LOL!

 

[Brisco]

I agree with most of the posters NO ban

I do think something has to change.

My take on things.

I would like to see incentive from Gov to get gunsafes in every home with guns that dont already have them.

Make gun safety a part of public education.

Change in how mental illness is dealt with. Not sure how this would happen but its obviously an issue.

I am also not against teachers trained with defensive weapons, mace, pepper spray, fire arms ect. Or having officers, private security is schools. It would create more jobs in this country.