Teacher Concealed Carry Law in Idaho

[SAJ-99]

Why does either state have to pick one or the other? Are you saying Idaho doesn’t have parallel programs? As for expanding those services, I haven’t noticed a person in this thread that has mentioned being opposed to it.

That has nothing to do with it. Just want to make sure I understand what he is saying. People in each state determine the level of services they want for schools, and it varies widely. I had police officers in my high school 40 yrs ago. I certainly hope they aren't removed today for budget reasons. Saying "it isn't going to happen" is just a way of saying citizens don't want to pay for it. This points in this thread shows arming teachers has a lot higher possibility of unintended consequences than the alternative. I'm pretty much with everyone else - for it, IF training is there. I just don't think it is realistic to expect a teacher to run into a closet and come out a police officer. Teachers already have too much to do and don't get paid enough to do it.

Thanks Desk Pop. Individuals With Disabilities Act (I.D.E.A.) sets guidelines. Each state still determines how to approach it. Throwing a kid out of school isn't a solution that benefits society either.

 

[Trial153]

Pay for trained professional individuals, or law enforcement to be in the school
All this bullshit it is more lawmakers hoping to get a free lunch. You have to wonder if the morons that pass laws like even understand how to weight the potential downside risk vs the potential upside.

 

[WYelker]

Pay for trained professional individuals, or law enforcement to be in the school
All this bullshit it is more lawmakers hoping to get a free lunch. You have to wonder if the morons that pass laws like even understand the potential downside risk vs the potential upside.

What is the downside to allowing school staff the same basic right to self defense they have outside of school?

 

[huntnpack]

Throwing a kid out of school isn't a solution that benefits society either.

A few decades ago many of these individuals would have been institutionalized from a young age. The push trickling down from the federal level was to place them in their own communities to enhance their quality of life and help them exercise their rights. I would argue that was a greater net loss in benefits for society (and a lower level services to the individual) at the cost of added individual liberties for those with these problems.

So, yes I think expulsion or institutionalization can aid society. But we collectively seemed to decide that wasn’t valued as highly as keeeping these people in these schools and our school personnel are bearing the brunt of it.

 

[Trial153]

What is the downside to allowing school staff the same basic right to self defense they have outside of school?

If you can’t imagine numerous situations and scenarios that are 100s times more likely come into play other than a school shooting that have untold potential downside if a firearm is present your as clueless as the law makers.

 

[Forkyfinder]

If you can’t imagine numerous situations and scenarios that are 100s times more likely come into play other than a school shooting that have untold potential downside if a firearm is present your as clueless as the law makers.

Think this cuts to the core of the issue. Imagination isnt data. People who are in favor of, or are open to this bill, arent willing to accept imagined hypotheticals as an argument to change their mind.

 

[Trial153]

Add a freaking 100K to the yearly budget and put a trained professional in the school. In addition to the protection and deterrent there is upside of the children interacting with law enforcement, gaining respect and familiarity. Furthermore you creating a needed position for an individual that will putting that money back into the system as tax payer and member of the community.

 

[Nick87]

Add a freaking 100K to the yearly budget and put a trained professional in the school. In addition to the protection and deterrent there is upside of the children interacting with law enforcement, gaining respect and familiarity. Furthermore you creating a needed position for an individual that will putting that money back into the system as tax payer and member of the community.

I don't think anyone on this thread has said that they were against that...unless I missed it.

 

[Trial153]

Think this cuts to the core of the issue. Imagination isnt data. People who are in favor of, or are open to this bill, arent willing to accept imagined hypotheticals as an argument to change their mind.

Your telling me it’s so far fetched that Mrs Joleen who’s bladder is busting at seems and runs to rest room leaving her purse unattended in second of distraction is too far fetched? Or how about the gym teach who does a jumping jack to many and his handgun bounces on the floor? Or the principal breaking up a school yard scuffle ? Oh but wait…show me the data.

 

[WYelker]

I wonder how effective armed teachers would be. School shooters generally are armed with an AR with multiple large capacity magazines, wearing body armor and are suicidal. The teachers would be armed with a small handgun, wearing work cloths and with the fear that they are about to die. It isn't quite the same as taking a knife to a gun fight but pretty close.

They would be very effective. First off school shooters are looking for fame and glory. They are using those weapons because they want to have a high body count.

There was an FBI study a few years back. The conclusion was this... Anytime the police are the first armed response to a mass shooting then umber of victims average over 13. It was like 13.8 and usually the shooter was not one of the victims, but instead surrendered or had already died by suicide... In the same study they found that any time a mass shooting was responded to by an armed citizen, the number of victims dropped to under 3. Like 2.6 and in those cases nearly 80% of the time the shooter was one of the dead. Simply put none of these guys are ready or prepared to have some one shooting at them. Just one person with a fire arm will completely disrupt the plan and force the shooter to take cover etc.

I will also say this... If a person right now entered your office with an AR 15 and began shooting would you rather be throwing your stapler at the guy or sending some 9mm down range?

 

[Nick87]

Like I said whenever guns come up emotions take over.

 

[WYelker]

If you can’t imagine numerous situations and scenarios that are 100s times more likely come into play other than a school shooting that have untold potential downside if a firearm is present your as clueless as the law makers.

HAHA. Imagination... You do realize that teachers have been allowed to carry in several states for decades? What data shows all the down sides? My kids attend a school where the staff allowed to carry. I know several staff are armed. I can tell you this, it has had absolutely no negative impact on the school or on learning. If anything it helps. When my kids saw Uvalde unfold, they were not afraid to go to school. They knew they had a level of protection that was not present at Uvalde. They also know that on the front of every door to every building, there is a sign stating that the staff are armed and willing to use lethal force to protect the students. That right there is a powerful deterrent to any attack.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Like I said whenever guns come up emotions take over.

Which makes these bills great if you want votes…

“We need to protect our kids”-R
“They want guns in schools”- D

Talking about ways to help kids that are obviously slipping through the cracks and helping them before they become shooters just isn’t sexy.

 

[Nick87]

Which makes these bills great if you want votes…

“We need to protect our kids”-R
“They want guns in schools”- D

Talking about ways to help kids that are obviously slipping through the cracks and helping them before they become shooters just isn’t sexy.

Yup that doesn't sell headlines or gain votes.

 

[WYelker]

Which makes these bills great if you want votes…

“We need to protect our kids”-R
“They want guns in schools”- D

Talking about ways to help kids that are obviously slipping through the cracks and helping them before they become shooters just isn’t sexy.

Why is it assumed that no one wants to prevent the mass shooting in the first place? Why can't teachers be armed and we also work to decrease the issue leading to mass shootings? Also isn't allowing for staff carry a good deterrent in the first place? I mean if you are a mass shooter and looking to get famous and have a high body count, are going someplace where they will shoot back or looking for a place where they cant shoot back?

 

[Forkyfinder]

Your telling me it’s so far fetched did Joleen who’s bladder is busting at seems and runs to rest room leaving her purse unattended in second of distraction is too far fetched? Or how about the gym teach who does a jumping jack to many and his handgun bounces on the floor? Or the principal breaking up a school yard scuffle ? Oh but wait…show me the data.

Has it happened when the general populace has trended towards more and more armed in the last 5 decades? Yeah. Show me the data. Apologies this is unique in todays world - but generally in any useful form of debate or discussion - feelings matter little compared to evidence.

I dont have to imagine what the current scenarios play out like for people trying to commit mass homicide undeterred. It happens way too often for reasons that cant be legislated away.

 

[SAJ-99]

They would be very effective. First off school shooters are looking for fame and glory. They are using those weapons because they want to have a high body count.

There was an FBI study a few years back. The conclusion was this... Anytime the police are the first armed response to a mass shooting then umber of victims average over 13. It was like 13.8 and usually the shooter was not one of the victims, but instead surrendered or had already died by suicide... In the same study they found that any time a mass shooting was responded to by an armed citizen, the number of victims dropped to under 3. Like 2.6 and in those cases nearly 80% of the time the shooter was one of the dead. Simply put none of these guys are ready or prepared to have some one shooting at them. Just one person with a fire arm will completely disrupt the plan and force the shooter to take cover etc.

I will also say this... If a person right now entered your office with an AR 15 and began shooting would you rather be throwing your stapler at the guy or sending some 9mm down range?

Is under 3 victims even classified as a mass shooting? Seems like fun with numbers and a lot of counter-factual massaging of incident data with assumptions.

 

[Derek44]

Think this cuts to the core of the issue. Imagination isnt data. People who are in favor of, or are open to this bill, arent willing to accept imagined hypotheticals as an argument to change their mind.

It’s also in the imagination of some that being present and having the ability to be the Rambo Hero will have any measurable effect to a net positive. Where’d the solid data for that? The entire issue on both sides is based on blind theory. Gun control advocates say even one life saved is worth it. 2A advocates say even one life saved is worth it. Both sides still inadvertently avoid the root problems. Both solutions are bandaids that have capabilities of falling off.

 

[Derek44]

Is under 3 victims even classified as a mass shooting? Seems like fun with numbers and a lot of counter-factual massaging of incident data with assumptions.

And besides. The argument of other situations doesn’t pertain to this one. This is strictly a discussion about having armed teachers. Come on now. Gotta get better at mental gymnastics if you want to contribute to many in this thread.

 

[Straight Arrow]

As a parent and grandparent and many years longtime school classroom assistant volunteer, I can tell you absolutely that very few professional educators wish to carry a firearm in the school or even have it in the classroom.

Although it's true that "the general populace has trended towards more and more armed in the last 5 decades", yet teachers do not want to be armed in the classroom.
For those who advocate for guns in school, I'm sure you believe it to be a significant deterrent to the relatively rare occurence of mass shooting. However, I'm more certain that guns in school would be a much more common and significantly more adverse deterrent to a healthy learning environment.