Sweet Grass Hills!

[theat]

I have no problem with outfitters using public lands for their financial benefit, but in this case I am opposed to the BLM issuing a commercial hunting permit. The reasoning for my decision is based on the fact that this is a fairly significant sized and very unique chunk of public land that is only accessible to the public through private lands enrolled in the Block Management Program. I don't know this outfitters intentions, but I am concerned that if he gets this permit, there is a lot of incentive for him to convince these landowners to leave the Block Management Program and lease their lands to him. If this happens, a lot of hunters will loose access to not only thousands of acres of private lands, but also thousands of acres of public land as well. If a clause could be added to the permit stating that the outfitter promises to not pursue leases on any connecting private lands currently enrolled in the Block Management Program, I would feel much more comfortable with this proposal.

 

[howler]

..,

 

[Straight Arrow]

...convince these landowners to leave the Block Management Program and lease their lands to him.

There you go, theat. What say you regarding the chances he will attempt the above:
1. Never happen.
2. Unlikely since he's a nice guy.
3. Might occur.
4. Probably will happen.
5. Certainly. (After all; it's just business.)

 

[mtmuley]

shoots, is there a map of the proposed lease area? mtmuley

 

[howler]

there is an interesting show about the SweetGrass Hills on "Backroads of Montana" right now,, pretty cool spelunking going on..

 

[sweetnectar]

Does this outfitter need the blm lease in order to make it worth leasing the private lands now enrolled in block mgmt?

 

[Pierre]

Folks,
The name of the game is working together. MSA offered and MOGA's Taber and Minard answered with a boatload of bad legislation. They work with R's and SFW but not resident sportsmen. They only show up with their hand out. They never show up for resource protection issues. For many very good reasons, there is little to no trust. We know there are good outfitters out there but until they take back their org from present mgmt, it will be more of the same. They have a huge image problem but really don't care.
Fact remains, when we have an outfitter move in (esp. to an area with BM) the leasing starts, resident access goes out the window, and problems of over objective herds materialize because these guys only hunt horns. The lowly resident hunter is expected to run cleanup on the antlerless, usually with no access.
MSA will stand up for the Resident Montana Hunter, whatever that takes. We'll go toe to toe with present MOGA leadership until they recognize sportsmen as something other than a force to be browbeaten, coerced, bullied, lied to, and generally direspected..

 

[Pierre]

And as for MOGA's use of the term "haters", I say bull. A Paul Ellis favorite. I know and respect a number of outfitters. Why they are putting up with MOGA, I'll never understand.
Sportsmen are reacting to a pile of bad legislation, bullying, and disrespect. "haters" is an inaccurate and disingenuous term. Perhaps sportsmen should get into name calling as well...how about "condescending bullies" for MOGA leadership. MOGA leadership is the party burning bridges and there are tons of examples!
Sportsmen would welcome an opportunity to work with any group of outfitters willing to operate in an open and honest fashion.

 

[Eric Albus]

joe, a boatload of bad legislation? depends on your perspective....i will concur w/ anyone on the "wilderness license"...that was a poor idea and should have never seen daylight(i argued as much about it).... but if you care to look at history, during the tenure of the OSL MOGA did not offer push ANY bills, holding up "our" end of the barain struck when we were priviledged w/ the OSL.
I love how you blame the outfitter for leasing....it always has been the landowners choice to lease or not lease.....and resident access being lost? I don't know of any outfitter who has an exclusive lease(not that there aren't some i don't know of)....most of us share w/ the public to some degree allowing access.....how much public access do you allow? friends and buddy's do not count.

 

[mtmuley]

I bet if I call Rich and ask to do a little muley hunting on the West Butte I'd find out if a lease was exclusive or not. Don't even pretend they aren't. mtmuley

 

[mtmiller]

I bet if I call Rich and ask to do a little muley hunting on the West Butte I'd find out if a lease was exclusive or not. Don't even pretend they aren't. mtmuley

Come on mt, for every $6,400 client he takes, one or two residents are allowed as well.

 

[JLS]

Does this outfitter need the blm lease in order to make it worth leasing the private lands now enrolled in block mgmt?

It would certainly make it much more appealing and easier for his guides and hunters.

 

[bigskyblueman]

There is no good or benefit to the public lands hunter that comes from permitting this. None. If he was nice, considerate, or thoughtful, I suspect he would't have applied in the first place.

 

[Pierre]

Eric,
Yes a boatload of bad legislation. In addition to not once standing up for the resource. Since you folks refuse to work with anyone, no wonder you think there is only one point of view.
Can you guys make a statement without I-161 entering in it, shortly to be followed with "its the best thing that ever happened to me"? It was a citizen's initiative, get over it.
MOGA has a huge image problem you seem unwilling to do anything about. I think most if not all resident sportsmen groups have washed their hands of Mac, Paul, and Pat. You folks are on a roll. Do you see any problem there? We are certainly aware of many places that were enticed to lease. I could have been one.
I have a small place but in nearly 40 years, the public has had access on a two parties a week basis. We have never charged a dime. We provide about 150 hunter days a year for birds not counting waterfowl, antelope, deer, coyotes, and trapping. We are especially tolerant of kids hunting. Yes, I could easily lease and have been approached. We are only short term tenants here and believe in sharing with the public. For many years we hosted disadvantaged youth for a hunt here; providing guns, shells, one on one mentors, food and travel to and from their homes. We helped the kids prepare their game for the table and even cooked for kids whose folks wouldn't. Given anything Eric?

 

[Pierre]

We also donate hunts annually to MWF, Montana Wild Sheep Federation, Pheasants Forever, and local causes on an annual basis. You picked the wrong dude to talk to about giving access.

 

[Eric Albus]

Given anything? us? no, we are like all the "greedy outfitters"...we just take....unless you count the hunts we have annually donated to DU, PF, SCI, MDF, SCI, RMEF...and all the youth/disadvantaged/disabled we take hunting, the veterans, the locals, and those who are fortunate enough to draw antelope or elk permits in our area....and probably some others i am forgetting about....think i would ask a question like that and not be able to hold my own??
"Get over it"...most of us have, but you need to "get over it" too...see when the "citizens intiative" was passed, MOGA was no longer held to the promise of "no legislation"....whilst I can concur that some of the legislation was not really well thought (like the "wilderness license") Most was not that bad, and being a Business Driven Organization, MOGA is trying to look out for the best intrest of the industy....MOGA is not a Defenders of Wildlife or MWF....it is a "business driven organization"....you seem to not understand this. MOGA does not have the resources, fiscally or time wise, to fight to "save the seals"....

oh, the reason it took me so long to respond is that i do not have internet on the swather or tractor, been 90 miles from home haying...just in case you were wondering.

mt, not saying that rich would allow you to hunt, but if you knew him and spent some time w/ him i bet he would....i know that he would let me or my boy hunt, and he has let a lot of folks who drew elk permits hunt....just like i have, even w/ this prevailing attitude we have still allowed a lot of access.

bigsky, he applied so he would not get a ticket if one of his guided hunters incidentally crossed BLM. which would you rather have, his hunter w/ a guide, or him turn loose hunters on the BLM? Lots easier to turn a bunch of guys loose than pay a guide to take one or 2 guys.

 

[Pierre]

Eric, most of us work very hard or have for a lifetime and are slowing down. You get no brownie pts from assuming you work harder, longer, etc. than all the rest of us.
You seem to refer to some long lost agreement on legislation before I-161. I don't know anything about who that might have been with, when, or why. So all this lousy legislation is in retribution for some deal you had with someone years ago? Or for I-161. Now that makes sense. Is it working for you? Is this tit for tat gaining you anything?
Yes, most of us are aware that MOGA is a business driven org. Many sportsmen are also very successful businessmen/women and know how it works. That does not absolve you of being responsible for the careful watch for legislation negative to the public trust from which you make a living. Most businesses are very conscious of their image. MOGA is not. You have two full time lobbyists so if you have time and money to spend on lousy legislation, any good business would see the opposite end as well. Remember the sportsmen opposing your poor legislation are all volunteers.
We aren't talking about saving seals but about the very resources owned by all of us that you make a living from. This is Montana, you are at the legislature in force, so you must decide what is worth it. We are talking about Montana critters. Just remember that your business is characterized as such. The goons you have in the public eye are the face of MOGA.
Eric, with all due respect, if you folks are happy with your image and the way your face in the legislature conducts business, then go for it. Most of us know outfitters who are friends and neighbors. They have our respect. MOGA does not. We would love to work with any outfitter on the basis of frank and open exchange housed in honesty.

 

[Pierre]

Eric, your members make boatloads of money from sheep hunters but MOGA was totally absent on the "NO sheep transplant bill". Also absent on the "no transplant of any wildlife bill". But you had time to pour resources into the hunter apprentice bill from SFW.....remember they did not work with our Hunter Safety instructors and neither did MOGA. Sorry, not buying it.

 

[Pierre]

And now you are coming back with elk archery in the Breaks again. Then it will be in the legislature. Plenty of resources to give to that one huh??

 

[mtmuley]

Eric, I don't know Rich and won't be able to spend time with him, so ask him if I can hunt the Clark Ranch for me. Thanks. mtmuley