Suppressors

[FAIR CHASE]

Not directed at anyone in particular (you know who you are) but a lot of the above info is flat out wrong. And again, info shared by someone who does not own a suppressor and/or owns one suppressor and either had a poor experience or does not understand the process.

The poaching claims are probably the funniest. A 'poacher' can go to ebay and buy an adapter for an oil filter and watch a short Youtube video on using an oil filter as a silencer. Regardless, it would be a felony to get caught with such a unregistered suppressor. Just like it is quite easy to convert an AR15 to full auto.

 

[FAIR CHASE]

Quick question...

If you have a suppressor that attached to a break do you know if the recoil reduction of the break still plays in? I've been wondering about getting a Surefire that will QD onto one of their breaks, and wonder if the Break will still reduce recoil while inside the can. Thoughts?

Absolutely. QD mounts have gotten really good and are available in difference configurations. For example the AAC 51T QD mount is available in blackout, brakeout or in a combo of the two.

Another fantastic advantage of a suppressor if for you coyote hunters. When calling in a group of coyotes and you shoot the first one, the other coyotes will often run directly towards you since they can not determine when the shot came from; even though the sonic crack is still present. If you reload 223 for example, make up some subsonic rounds and now you are near 'Hollywood' quiet.

And for those discussing DB, remember the decibels (reduction) are logarithmic.

 

[MTClacka]

Rob, I definitely agree with some of your points, and unfortunately the reality is we will never be able to measure how suppressors will affect poaching. Poachers will occassionally be caught, some with suppressors, some without, but unfortunately the majority of poaching cases go unsolved or even unfound. The problem I have with it is that it all boils down to ethics. I don't know if you archery hunt, but you could make the same argument using bowhunters as you would "suppressed" hunters. Bowhunters can be unseen (no orange), and unheard. Who knows if that bull was shot 15 minutes after legal light or not? I know I've been in that situation, and ethically made the decision not to shoot. Doesn't matter if I have a bow in my hand, or a suppressed rifle over my shoulder. I can't speak for everyone though, so with that said, I'll change my argument to, poaching probably won't increase "very much"!

 

[MKotur325]

I've been looking over most of the poaching reports listed on this site for the past few years. There are currently 39 states where it is legal to own a suppressor. It could just be me, but I've yet to see a case (at least posted here) where legalization of suppressors for hunting caused an increase in poaching, or a single case (at least posted here) where suppressors were used in the illicit take of game. Montana and California are the only western states who do not allow hunting of big game animals with suppressors. They are illegal full stop in CA. The last data I've found was from October of 2013. Wyoming just legalized hunting with suppressors in 2013. I've not heard of any instances where poaching increased due to the legalization of hunting with suppressors. In Wyoming or anywhere else, and I have yet to see a report of a poacher caught who used a suppressor.

Wouldn't you think that if there was some basis to your claims that poaching would increase that we would have historical data from WA, OR, ID, UT, CO, AZ, NM, CO, WY, ND, SD, NE, KS, TX, OK or AK to back up your claim? I'm not going to oppose legislation based on ghost poachers with suppressors without significant documented proof of poachers with suppressors.

Is there suddenly going to be a HUGE influx of Montana hunters going out and Buying Suppressors for this hunting season?? Doubt it. There may be a few new suppressors purchased for the purpose of hunting. I'd bet that most of the people who will hunt with suppressors already own them.

So the bottom line is this... Is passing this bill going to increase poaching? Only one way to find out, pass it and see. Montana is behind the curve on this, and I'd imagine that if Poaching increased in WY in the past two years, the legislature would be clamoring to repeal the use of suppressors for hunting. I've not heard anything about that, but I'm in MT. It's also probably worth asking all the folks who hunt in the other western states... How often do you see anyone hunting with a suppressor in UT, CO, ND, SD, WY, NM, AZ, ID and so on? Do you feel that poaching has increased since your state legalized hunting with suppressors? Do you believe that poachers in your state use suppressors in the illicit take of game?

Ultimately we are not legalizing poaching. We not even legalizing poaching with a suppressor. We are also not changing any of the restrictions to purchase a suppressor. Purchasing a suppressor is a federal process, we as Montanans cannot change the hoops that must be jumped through to legally own a suppressor. Illegal use or Illegal ownership of a suppressor is still a Felony with a sentence of 5-10 years in prison. We are passing a law allowing People who lawfully own a suppressor to carry it afield while hunting, and use it for the lawful take of big game animals.

 

[buglum]

I live in Montana and have had one for a couple years now. Cant speak for everyone but here are a few quick answers.

1. The paper work is easy, just fill it out and forget about it until its approved ( I used Trust)
2. You gain velocity because essentially you make the barrel longer. I gained 55fps
3. I have about the largest suppressor made, its .338 caliber and weighs 2lbs. It is 12" long but only extends the barrel 8" because 4" are recessed over the barrel. They do make titanium which are lighter.

4. Its a kick in the pants to shoot (even for a 338 Lapua), and my friends actually like to go shooting with me now:hump:

I got mine made by a Montana company based near Missoula. www.eliteiron.com

 

[FAIR CHASE]

buglum, does it come with other end caps (like the Saker) when using on smaller caliber rifles?

 

[buglum]

buglum, does it come with other end caps (like the Saker) when using on smaller caliber rifles?

It does not. I can shoot it on any smaller caliber, its just not as effective at noise suppression. I have a 30cal and a .22 caliber can that should be approved any day now. Those will cover pretty much everything I own. from .223-.308 and they are about half the weight and length of the .338 suppressors.

 

[MTClacka]

Here's one of mine. SilencerCo Specwar 7.62. It's rated up to 300RUM, but I've only shot it through my .308 and .556's. My 300wsm hunting rifle is now threaded, just waiting for Montana to pass this bill.

 

[RobG]

The subject came up at a meeting with MFWP's Sam Shepard and he said the gunshot noise is very helpful in detecting poaching. I know they listen for gunshots after hours. Without the noise it will be difficult to catch people sneaking in a kill so I wouldn't expect the stats to show an obvious increase. Sam also said that the bigger poaching busts they have had involved suppressors; they just flat out make it easier to do, so making them more available will increase the people shooting after hours, etc.

I don't worry much about such things though... what I see coming is that in 10-20 years they will be saying "All states except California and New York - you know that will be the case - allow hunting with suppressors. It is time we remove the federal tax and paperwork on them so little low-income Johnny can protect his tender ears using only his allowance money. Silencers don't poach deer, people do.. yada, yada..."

After the tax is gone economies of scale will kick in making them affordable and everyone will have them (another hole in the arguments justifying these things). Then we will find out why it was a bad idea to have one in every gun case... What that bad idea is I can't tell you, but when I weigh the advantages versus the risk of unintended consequences I don't see a compelling reason to allow them. Buy ear plugs and use them. But again I really don't care much either way.

I've been looking over most of the poaching reports listed on this site for the past few years. There are currently 39 states where it is legal to own a suppressor. It could just be me, but I've yet to see a case (at least posted here) where legalization of suppressors for hunting caused an increase in poaching, or a single case (at least posted here) where suppressors were used in the illicit take of game. Montana and California are the only western states who do not allow hunting of big game animals with suppressors. They are illegal full stop in CA. The last data I've found was from October of 2013. Wyoming just legalized hunting with suppressors in 2013. I've not heard of any instances where poaching increased due to the legalization of hunting with suppressors. In Wyoming or anywhere else, and I have yet to see a report of a poacher caught who used a suppressor.

Wouldn't you think that if there was some basis to your claims that poaching would increase that we would have historical data from WA, OR, ID, UT, CO, AZ, NM, CO, WY, ND, SD, NE, KS, TX, OK or AK to back up your claim? I'm not going to oppose legislation based on ghost poachers with suppressors without significant documented proof of poachers with suppressors.

Is there suddenly going to be a HUGE influx of Montana hunters going out and Buying Suppressors for this hunting season?? Doubt it. There may be a few new suppressors purchased for the purpose of hunting. I'd bet that most of the people who will hunt with suppressors already own them.

So the bottom line is this... Is passing this bill going to increase poaching? Only one way to find out, pass it and see. Montana is behind the curve on this, and I'd imagine that if Poaching increased in WY in the past two years, the legislature would be clamoring to repeal the use of suppressors for hunting. I've not heard anything about that, but I'm in MT. It's also probably worth asking all the folks who hunt in the other western states... How often do you see anyone hunting with a suppressor in UT, CO, ND, SD, WY, NM, AZ, ID and so on? Do you feel that poaching has increased since your state legalized hunting with suppressors? Do you believe that poachers in your state use suppressors in the illicit take of game?

Ultimately we are not legalizing poaching. We not even legalizing poaching with a suppressor. We are also not changing any of the restrictions to purchase a suppressor. Purchasing a suppressor is a federal process, we as Montanans cannot change the hoops that must be jumped through to legally own a suppressor. Illegal use or Illegal ownership of a suppressor is still a Felony with a sentence of 5-10 years in prison. We are passing a law allowing People who lawfully own a suppressor to carry it afield while hunting, and use it for the lawful take of big game animals.

 

[mtmuley]

Can someone explain the claim of a suppressor increasing velocity if it is not part of the rifled barrel? mtmuley

 

[mtmiller]

...and better accuracy.

 

[FAIR CHASE]

Even Theodore Roosevelt used a suppressor.

 

[buglum]

mtmuley- they increase velocity because they extend the barrel length of the rifle. Rule of thumb is for every 1" of barrel increase you gain 100fps. Granted that is a barrel not a supressor but the internal dimensions of a baffle are are a couple thousandths less than the said caliber. So a .338 can actually has a baffle diameter of like .400. It's not an exact correlation because of the larger diameter but it does help.

As far as accuracy I can't lay any claim to why they are more accurate mechanically but I guarntee than most everyone shoots a suppressed weapon better simply because the recoil and back blast is so light their is no "flinching" associated with the shot. I don't care if it's a .243, you will shoot it better with a suppressor on it even if your a macho man. It's like pulling up a pellet gun to your brain, and anyone that understands how to shoot a rifle would know that low power rifles make your mind settle and shoot cleaner.

 

[mtmuley]

buglum, thanks for the explanation, but if a suppressor isn't an extension of a rifled barrel carrying lands and grooves, it can no way increase velocity. It has even been stated here that one suppressor will work with different calibers. Don't make sense. mtmuley

 

[buglum]

buglum, thanks for the explanation, but if a suppressor isn't an extension of a rifled barrel carrying lands and grooves, it can no way increase velocity. It has even been stated here that one suppressor will work with different calibers. Don't make sense. mtmuley

Google it man. Granted it's not a rifled barrel as stated above but machining is so tight these days that the baffles are literally a couple thousandths less than bullet diameter. So yes it does increase velocity, granted it's 1-6% more than the same length barrel but...

While you say one suppressor works on another caliber is true, I'm not sure what the question is on that?

 

[mtmuley]

Google it? Is that what you did? It is not possible a suppressor increases velocity. No way. Which cartridge did you realize the 55 fps gain? I'd be interested in the initial velocity and the improved suppressor velocity. mtmuley

 

[noharleyyet]

freebore boost,

2) Freebore boost. The phenomenon known as "freebore boost" occurs in particular suppressor designs and sometimes requires a particular loading of ammunition. It is caused by a primary expansion chamber ahead of the barrel's muzzle which acts as a barrel extension as a bullet passes through it. Propellant gases continue to expand inside the chamber and push the bullet through the baffle stack at a slightly increased velocity. The suppressor can actually increase bullet velocity up to about 40 feet per second (12.1 m/s) depending on the design.

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6303

Hell, I didn't even know I wanted or needed one til Rob droned on about spoons making people fat.

 

[smarandr]

My physics education ended in high school over 15 years ago, but wouldn't the suppressor still provide enough restriction for the gas to keep propelling the bullet faster?

 

[mtmuley]

nhy, I guess I stand corrected. Kinda. Still ain't enough for me to spend a ton of money to get one of them ugly suckers on any of my rifles. mtmuley

 

[FAIR CHASE]

nhy, I guess I stand corrected. Kinda. Still ain't enough for me to spend a ton of money to get one of them ugly suckers on any of my rifles. mtmuley

Then it's quite simple for you, don't buy one. They are not for everyone. Especially those with no experience, yet have a strong opinion and prefer to remain naive.

I know it's just the internet and this site is a political one, and motives are directed by a select few ........... but good grief.

Since when does making product 'XXXX' legal lead to and encourage criminals to use 'XXXX' ' to engage in illegal activities?

Suppressors have been legal to purchase for many decades but now that most states allow suppressors to be used in hunting big game, poachers are now jumping with excitement??