Stolen Opportunities....a very sad elk tale. We must do better!

[Wind Gypsy]

I hate people lobbing unethical shots like everyone else but a half second bullet time of flight at 500 yards is down the list a ways of things in this story that were unethical. A 500 yard rifle shot is about the same time of flight as a 45 yard archery shot, where an animal can actually hear the bow go off and projectile headed their way for the majority of that half second.

 

[thomas89]

How does the GF set season structures in say....Montana to account for these types of loses and crap ethics? Resident elk/deer tags are over the counter/ dirt cheap and the season structure hasn't changed for 60 years (other than adding a youth deer season, an additional Saturday, and a late muzzleloader season).

I think if we actually knew how much of this type of deal went on, we'd be shocked. It's no wonder public land hunting is so hard.

I am sure this was a rhetorical question, but I can’t find it now of course, but somewhere I thought I read that population objective = natural mortality - hunter mortality - hunter loss, where each was a predetermined percentage? I’m sure I butchered it or missed something else. Maybe it was more related to waterfowl or something.

I’m sure there are biologists saying different things than ranchers/citizens in terms of season structure/bag limits.

 

[Big Fin]

I wonder how much would change if states adopted the Alaska black bear rule; You draw blood, you're done. Yeah, there would still be a lot of fools who draw blood and would not follow the rule, but the more I hear about this kind of stuff and the more I see people taking shots far beyond their talent level, the more I ponder approaching a Montana legislator to carry such a bill.

 

[RealMuddyboots]

Outfitter I hunted with had that requirement if you draw blood and animal is not recovered, you were done.

 

[RealMuddyboots]

So your a long range shooter?

View attachment 250864

Yep, build my own rifles, I shoot a lot. I see what I stated at range all the time. I really can't remember last time I saw someone prone using their bipod or even cross sticks as practice.

 

[Big Fin]

Re-reading the events as written by @Mtnhunter1 got me to call some folks who could get such law passed. I get that wounding can happen. I get that things don't always go as planned. It has happened to me a few times and it flat out sucks. I suspect most of us here have one of those terrible days when things went wrong. Yet, some folks have that problem on a monthly basis.

The amount of wounding loss whispered in secret or known via recoveries like @Mtnhunter1 has written, in both rifle and archery season, is insane. And, from my anecdotal interactions with hunters, it is increasing each year. As Montana population increases and resident hunter numbers continue to rise, the pressure on the resource cannot withstand this number of folks who keep shooting at animals until they finally recover one.

I know it won't stop some folks. But, I suspect having that rule would hopefully cause a bit more consideration before releasing the arrow or pulling the trigger. And, it would likely cause some to brush up on tracking skills and maybe more effort would be invested in finding the animal that was hit than is spent finding the next convenient target.

I'm gonna pursue this further with legislators. If folks gets pissed because such bill gets introduced in the 2023 legislative session, they can send me a PM or email with their complaints. I'm over it.

 

[HuntTalk Freak]

This is exactly why I didn’t fire a third shot at the bull I lost this year, I wasn’t 100% sure the bull that came back out was the same one since there were two bulls together.

It’s a sick feeling losing an animal, would have been worse if I shot two by mistake.

 

[Addicting]

Re-reading the events as written by @Mtnhunter1 got me to call some folks who could get such law passed. I get that wounding can happen. I get that things don't always go as planned. It has happened to me a few times and it flat out sucks. I suspect most of us here have one of those terrible days when things went wrong. Yet, some folks have that problem on a monthly basis.

The amount of wounding loss whispered in secret or known via recoveries like @Mtnhunter1 has written, in both rifle and archery season, is insane. And, from my anecdotal interactions with hunters, it is increasing each year. As Montana population increases and resident hunter numbers continue to rise, the pressure on the resource cannot withstand this number of folks who keep shooting at animals until they finally recover one.

I know it won't stop some folks. But, I suspect having that rule would hopefully cause a bit more consideration before releasing the arrow or pulling the trigger. And, it would likely cause some to brush up on tracking skills and maybe more effort would be invested in finding the animal that was hit than is spent finding the next convenient target.

I'm gonna pursue this further with legislators. If folks gets pissed because such bill gets introduced in the 2023 legislative session, they can send me a PM or email with their complaints. I'm over it.

How would it be enforceable? I can imagine a lot of scenarios where it’s basically going to be on the honor system. Based on the other threads we see about ethics on here I don’t hold a lot of hope on voluntary punching the tag no matter the law.

 

[Bullshot]

A law such as Randy proposes is desperately needed. It would make no difference to great hunters, some difference to marginal hunters with good intentions, and probably little difference to the worst of the lot (in the moment) except it will give law enforcement and other witnessing hunters a bit more of a leg to stand on when trying to address the bad apples. Gotta do something. I would love to see this catch fire. Every wasted animal is one less opportunity, one less tag that the State can SELL. And more importantly, the animals are a public trust asset that should be defended.

 

[Addicting]

A law such as Randy proposes is desperately needed. It would make no difference to great hunters, some difference to marginal hunters with good intentions, and probably little difference to the worst of the lot (in the moment) except it will give law enforcement and other witnessing hunters a bit more of a leg to stand on when trying to address the bad apples. Gotta do something. I would love to see this catch fire. Every wasted animal is one less opportunity, one less tag that the State can SELL. And more importantly, the animals are a public trust asset that should be defended.

Prove I knew I wounded an animal. I looked and it didn’t show a hit, I didn’t see any blood.

A archery hit would be harder to deny, but a rifle hit is super easy to deny. Especially when there is multiple animals.

I’m not encouraging or discouraging this. I just don’t see how it will effect much except the honest hunter who would weigh all the situation out before making the decision to punch or not punch. It won’t stop MT flock shooting that we are talking about from the OP.

 

[Big Fin]

How would it be enforceable? I can imagine a lot of scenarios where it’s basically going to be on the honor system. Based on the other threads we see about ethics on here I don’t hold a lot of hope on voluntary punching the tag no matter the law.

Surely will be the case, as you point out. Like a lot of laws, it's not 100% enforceable. And yes, it is mostly an honor system. If a group is hunting, which is how a lot of people hunt, there will be a lot of people who are aware of that unfortunate outcome. If you're hunting with your kids, they have loose lips. In the open country of Montana, folks can see the work of other hunters from a long distance.

If it causes folks to think a few more seconds before pulling the trigger or releasing an arrow that results in a better shot, that is the goal. And if it causes people to spend more time looking for a hit animal, hopefully recovering it, that is a good outcome. Fewer unrecovered animals is good, even if enforcement cannot be 100%. Alaska has it for black bear and folks say they like it.

 

[Addicting]

Surely will be the case, as you point out. Like a lot of laws, it's not 100% enforceable. And yes, it is mostly an honor system. If a group is hunting, which is how a lot of people hunt, there will be a lot of people who are aware of that unfortunate outcome. If you're hunting with your kids, they have loose lips. In the open country of Montana, folks can see the work of other hunters from a long distance.

If it causes folks to think a few more seconds before pulling the trigger or releasing an arrow that results in a better shot, that is the goal. And if it causes people to spend more time looking for a hit animal, hopefully recovering it, that is a good outcome. Fewer unrecovered animals is good, even if enforcement cannot be 100%. Alaska has it for black bear and folks say they like it.

Agree, peer pressure will help. This will cause Warden man hours to increase. Is MT willing to increase license fees for Residents to pay for it?

I say residents because it’s cheap for you to have multiple tags verses me more likely having a single tag.

 

[Edwin]

So these elk die a half mile apart, no charge. What if they die 100 feet apart? Their action of not looking or leaving it to rot would be the same. When there's 1 hunter and 2 dead elk, I don't really understand why they couldn't be charged. Even if the hunter is clueless to the fact he hit 2 elk (I don't believe) he did and should have to live with the consequences. This to me is a little different scenario than just a wounded animal unrecovered. This is a case where the individual fired upon 2 animals with 1 tag simultaneously and should be treated differently.

 

[TheTone]

Take away rifle scopes. Easy enough to enforce.

We have continually gotten better at killing animals due to technology. At some point something has to give either with the tools we use or the opportunity

 

[MTLabrador]

Take away rifle scopes. Easy enough to enforce.

We have continually gotten better at killing animals due to technology. At some point something has to give either with the tools we use or the opportunity

Vortex would start making these…

 

[EYJONAS!]

Take away rifle scopes. Easy enough to enforce.

We have continually gotten better at killing animals due to technology. At some point something has to give either with the tools we use or the opportunity

Like ol Steve West says.....

JUST RANGE EM AND ELIMINATE EM!!!!

 

[EYJONAS!]

Vortex would start making these…

View attachment 250942

Their warranty department would walk out....

 

[Addicting]

So these elk die a half mile apart, no charge. What if they die 100 feet apart? Their action of not looking or leaving it to rot would be the same. When there's 1 hunter and 2 dead elk, I don't really understand why they couldn't be charged. Even if the hunter is clueless to the fact he hit 2 elk (I don't believe) he did and should have to live with the consequences. This to me is a little different scenario than just a wounded animal unrecovered. This is a case where the individual fired upon 2 animals with 1 tag simultaneously and should be treated differently.

Because stupidity is not a crime. Lots of elk, low light, similar bulls, commotion. Shouldn’t have shot a second round but that’s not illegal either.

Having the smarts and discipline to not go full send is not required to buy a license unfortunately.

 

[mtmuley]

I won't support it as a law. Too much else to deal with. Waste of time and money. mtmuley

 

[Addicting]

I won't support it as a law. Too much else to deal with. Waste of time and money. mtmuley

It would throw a wrench in Hank’s argument about over objective elk and the need for give away tags.