State of Wyoming Admidts Overgrazing Hurts Deer and Elk

[JoseCuervo]

Paul,

I don't think it is relevant, or even fair, to ask 1-Ptr to comment on his observations of his co-workers personal opinions. I think with all the "political witchhunts" that take place in the agencies, it is inappropriate for you to ask these questions.

You can probably guess the answer and opinion that most sane people would feel. So your baiting of 1-pointer is just mean-spirited. I didn't comment on your questions about the mis-management of overhead within the BLM, as I thought 1-Ptr did a good job of brushing your ridiculous question aside. I have no idea how old you are, but if your recent conversation with the BLM person was your first realization that a Federal Agency is inefficient with spending MY tax dollars, then you need to get out more.

My guess is the BLM is no more inefficient than any one else in the Departments of Defense, Ag, Interior, HUD, Treasury, State, etc.. etc.. The fact the BLM is inefficient does not make it acceptable for Overgrazing to destroy wild life habitat.

If HUD does not fund enough cops for Cabrini Green in Chicago, is it ok for the Crack dealers to take over entire floors of the project? No more so than it is not ok for a bunch of Welfare Ranchers to destroy the habitat on Public Lands.

Want my comments on Wild Horses? A couple of times I have thought about adopting a couple, and breaking them to pack. The ones I have been around have been incredibly sure footed, and it seems like a "best use" of the animals to put them to work hauling my dead critters out of steep country.

If you are looking for someone to volunteer to ride around in a helicopter and put bullets in them. I'll volunteer, just don't make me pack them out. But also, when I am out in the Owyhees, and I see some, it just adds to the richness of my day. I have yet to see any damage from wild horses in the Owyhees, so I haven't been too worried about them. I guess I'll look to you for leadership and sound ideas on this issue....

Oh wait.... I don't know if I can remember you EVER providing a solution, and most of the time you merely whine about others making progress.

 

[cjcj]

The solution is to drasticly CUT all government!

 

[Nut]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjcj:
The solution is to drasticly CUT all government!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets start by firing all the politicians and their cronies.

 

[1_pointer]

Paul- Like most answers, it depends...on who you talk to. The people in the horse program thinks they are great and support the management as such. However, that could be biased by their personal interest, ie their job. A couple of local ranchers I talked to stated they don't mind them as long as their numbers are kept in check. The range management folks see them as kinda of a love/hate thing. They don't mind some, but like anything their can be too many. In addition, horses can make certain projects to get through because of the protection afforded the horses. The law requiring the BLM to manage the horses, which in this case includes hauling water, is the Wild Horse and Burro Act. That's as much as I know, I haven't read through the law.

Gunner- Thanks for the support, but if Paul decides to try a witchhunt, well I know where he lives. (all tongue in cheek)

Ithaca- Remember it is those 'range maggots' that helped the spread and proliferation of cheatgrass which the chukar (both evolved in the same relative area) thrive on! Better grazing management and healthier lands may not be in the chukar's best interest in all places.

CJ- If you like to recreate on public lands then I don't think cutting the government would neccessarily work.

 

[Ithaca 37]

1 pointer, "the spread and proliferation of cheatgrass which the chukar (both evolved in the same relative area) thrive on!"

Congratulations! All that book learnin' is paying off! I've been waitin' two years for somebody to point out the relationship between chukars and cheatgrass!

Unfortunately, they seem to need sagebrush (or maybe some other kinda brush )too. Cheatgrass fires kill the sagebrush and the chukars won't live where there's no sagebrush. I suspect the chukars could live just as well on crested wheatgrass or some other kinda grass with lotsa seeds, but I don't know and I've never read anything about it. When I scout for chukars I look for rocks, sagebrush, cheatgrass and water. If you find the right combination of those four things you'll find chukars.

 

[Ten Bears]

IT, I'm sure you have been waiting 2 years.

Are you talking range maggots (sheep) or cows? The grazing impacts,rates, and methods are different Remember, I asked you something about wild horses, and their imapcts, answer yet?


ELK GRINNER, my point was you first have to evaluate a "potential Value/Condition" = climax community, before you can assess a condition, and in this case our resident experts were quick to point out that they can do that without evidence. I merely pointed out that you have to evaluate each site individually, and that just because there is grazing it doesn't always = overgrazing, nor is it always destroying the habitat. Nice try.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, Your transparent attempts to waste our time are feeble minded. Why don't YOU start showing us some back up, links, proof, or solutions to anything you've ever commented on?

 

[BigHornyRam]

Pointer,

I'm not so much for cutting government, but am for making them more effecient. But if government was cut, how would this affect my use of public lands? I probably would have to pay less taxes, so therefore I would have to work less to make the same amout of money. Working less would mean I would have more time to spend using public lands. Never mind Pointer, I answered my own question.

Paul

 

[BigHornyRam]

Apparently Buzz missed these questions.

Buzz,

Any comments on the horse issues? Good information from you and Pointer. Here are a few more questions. Of the 60% lands in bad condition, what percent would be nuked, what % would be in bad bad condition, and what % would be real close to being in the 40% catigory? Could things be done to improve there condition, including giving them a rest from grazing? Did some of them get a break from grazing after they were determined to be in poor condition? Did local drought conditions play a factor in the range conditions? How do these lands that you inventoried 3 to 5 years ago look today?

Thanks Paul

Heres another question Buzz missed.


Buzz,

Who is pushing for competitive sourcing, and do you agree with this direction?

Paul

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, here a couple answers you missed:

Buzz said, "Paul, of the lands I inventoried, I'd say that of the 60% that were in decline and/or poor condition at least a third if not half, could have been greatly improved very easily. Mostly with timing, intensity and/or duration of grazing. But, like I said, our job was not to make recommendations to the BLM, FS, etc. unless asked to. We were reporting to them on the current condition of their lands. Besides that, our recommendations may or may not have been heeded anyway...local and national politics were much more important for decision making and actions than what the science proved. Thats the most frustrating part of resource management, by far.

As to the horses, I dont mind seeing some, but I hunt a few areas that are over-run with them. No doubt they do extensive damage. Personally, I'd like to see their numbers controlled, but no need to eliminate them completely. I think there is room for them."

I did miss the competitive sourcing question though....

Answer: Your Boy in the Whitehouse. (as much as it pains me to say so, I do agree with him on that.)

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzz,

I'm proud of you! There's hope for you yet.

Between you and me, with the fire camp across the road from me for the past several weeks, I've got a first hand eye full of how the gubberment can piss mucho money away fighting these fires, I have to agree with you on this area you have a lot of experience in. Not a lot of pork left in the bottom of that barrel.

Paul

 

[cjcj]

Time to [thin] the government herd! across the board.

 

[Ten Bears]

IT, odd you would feel that way??? I have posted links to support all my claims. Talk about transparent and feeble, try looking at yourself.

Your comments have been lacking lately, kind of like your grandstanding of old aint it?

ELK GRINNER, back at you with a similar question. Please don't tell me that you think that there are deer, elk, pronghorn, or other game that do not benefit from grazing environments.

 

[Ten Bears]

IT, remember this statement?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Maybe you're incapable of remembering, maybe you're just lying again.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you found those lies yet?

 

[1_pointer]

IT - With water scarce, I'm suprised how low I've found some chukar in NW UT.

TB - What good is comparing to or even knowing what the climax community is if there is no chance of reverted back to it?

 

[Ten Bears]

Having a "known" climax or "potential" climax community provides a base line for comparison.

Who said it would not or could not ever be achieved? I'm saying that some sites are in "visibly poor" condition even at climax community state.

 

[1_pointer]

The historical climax community is what I have problems with on some sites, as they no longer apply. They are no longer the climax community. For example, many sagebrush steppe rangelands have been converted to dominance by cheatgrass, which will persist as the climax without great intervention. It is almost a semantic argument, as we see different views of a climax community.

This paper explains it much better than I. Let me know if you have problems accessing it and I will email it to those interested.
States and Transitions Model

 

[Ten Bears]

Yet, having the climax as a base line does not mean it is a goal. It is only a base line of measure. Many wildlife species do poorly in many climax communitys.

It's early season over grazing a control for cheatgrass?

 

[1_pointer]

Early season grazing has shown to reduce the number of seeds produced. BUT (there's always a but

) one must be careful because early season grazing can hurt many of the natives that may be present. Also, the grazing must be done before the cheatgrass sets seed. However, with enough spring moisture cheatgrass can germinate/emerge in May and still produce viable seed in 60 days. So, early season grazing can be a tool, but not a cure-all IMO.

 

[Ten Bears]

I thought it was used as a "control". If it had been the "solution" we wouldn't be in this mess would we.

Thanks 1-P