Spring Bears With Hounds Proposed

[Valley1320]

On that second hunt, I did talk to some NM elk hunters at the trail head about the bear hunters. They commented that they are inundated with out-of-state houndsmen chasing bears. I would be interested to know if @Valley1320 has seen a lot of non-resident bear houndsmen in New Mexico, as was stated by the locals I talked to and pitched camp with on those hunts.

Seems to depend on where I bear hunt, I run into the most NR houndsmen in unit 49 most NRs are from out east also it seems like, for the most part the NRs I've met have seemed nice and decent except one group I met I didn't really think much of. The nicest NRs I met was a guy out of Utah down hunting with his young son. The guys I've met that I didn't care for the most was some guys that were Resident Outfitters but I'm not here to make all outfitters look bad because I have a friend that is a outfitter and one of the most decent and caring houndsmen I know.

 

[Valley1320]

@IdahoNick is a great spokesman for hound hunters, the exact opposite of the groups I met when two different New Mexico elk hunts were impacted by bear hunters and their hounds. It was a cluster. We could hear trucks and dogs down below. Wasn't too long and the woods were full of barking hounds. Not sure if that impacted the elk we had seen in the area, but on both occasions, no elk were spotted when the bear hunting houndsmen were there.

That wasn't the real rub, as I've had to accommodate my hunts to respect the uses of a lot of different public land users; hikers, wood cutters, mountain bikers, etc. All comes with public lands being open to all of us.

The rub came with the first group being rather obnoxious and almost running us over as we walked down a road that had been gated. They were from out of state, as were we. I wasn't took keen on them driving around a gate, so as they drove past I asked them if they knew that this road was closed, to which they rambled on some BS about the "Forest Circus" and their opinion that roads shouldn't be closed. Not a good impression of bear hunting houndsmen, though I know a lot of lion hunting houndsmen in Montana. The second year was a similar outcome on that day's elk hunt, though I didn't have an encounter on a closed road.

On that second hunt, I did talk to some NM elk hunters at the trail head about the bear hunters. They commented that they are inundated with out-of-state houndsmen chasing bears. I would be interested to know if @Valley1320 has seen a lot of non-resident bear houndsmen in New Mexico, as was stated by the locals I talked to and pitched camp with on those hunts.

NM is mostly OTC for bear, all fall seasons, and that they are a place where guys with coon hounds, lion hounds, and whatever other houndsmen come to chase bears. This was northern NM. The locals seem to be getting fed up with the huge increase in non-resident bear hunting houndsmen coming during elk hunting seasons.

This was a few years back. Not sure if much has changed since then. I've not encountered bear hunting houndsmen in western or central NM.

Given how many hunters are on the Montana elk woods during elk season, a number far higher than NM, I am sure the experiences I had in NM will be repeated many times over during MT elk seasons, even if there are not many bear hunting houndsmen. At least if the hound hunting for bears is allowed as a fall hunt.

Some would say that it is selfish of elk hunters to not want bear hunting houndsmen in the woods with them in elk season. Maybe it is. From those experiences I mention, it seems that hound hunting for bears has more impact on the other hunters in the woods, than the other way around.

I admit to not being excited about this idea. Maybe I would get used to it and it would be no big deal.

I do know that if we are chasing bears with hounds (or baiting) without specific accommodations in known grizzly areas, we are serving up some home run pitches for the folks who want to continue using grizzlies as their cash cow. If this passes, I'll start a pool of how long it will be before use of hounds is mentioned in a lawsuit by the drive by litigators.

That said, we've been down this road before and it was voted down. We now have a freshman legislator who maybe he thinks we don't know what is best for ourselves.

I love elk hunting as much as bear hunting and am not into ruining someone's elk hunting by running bear during a open elk season in the same area. That would suck.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

@IdahoNick is a great spokesman for hound hunters, the exact opposite of the groups I met when two different New Mexico elk hunts were impacted by bear hunters and their hounds. It was a cluster. We could hear trucks and dogs down below. Wasn't too long and the woods were full of barking hounds. Not sure if that impacted the elk we had seen in the area, but on both occasions, no elk were spotted when the bear hunting houndsmen were there.

That wasn't the real rub, as I've had to accommodate my hunts to respect the uses of a lot of different public land users; hikers, wood cutters, mountain bikers, etc. All comes with public lands being open to all of us.

The rub came with the first group being rather obnoxious and almost running us over as we walked down a road that had been gated. They were from out of state, as were we. I wasn't took keen on them driving around a gate, so as they drove past I asked them if they knew that this road was closed, to which they rambled on some BS about the "Forest Circus" and their opinion that roads shouldn't be closed. Not a good impression of bear hunting houndsmen, though I know a lot of lion hunting houndsmen in Montana. The second year was a similar outcome on that day's elk hunt, though I didn't have an encounter on a closed road.

On that second hunt, I did talk to some NM elk hunters at the trail head about the bear hunters. They commented that they are inundated with out-of-state houndsmen chasing bears. I would be interested to know if @Valley1320 has seen a lot of non-resident bear houndsmen in New Mexico, as was stated by the locals I talked to and pitched camp with on those hunts.

NM is mostly OTC for bear, all fall seasons, and that they are a place where guys with coon hounds, lion hounds, and whatever other houndsmen come to chase bears. This was northern NM. The locals seem to be getting fed up with the huge increase in non-resident bear hunting houndsmen coming during elk hunting seasons.

This was a few years back. Not sure if much has changed since then. I've not encountered bear hunting houndsmen in western or central NM.

Given how many hunters are on the Montana elk woods during elk season, a number far higher than NM, I am sure the experiences I had in NM will be repeated many times over during MT elk seasons, even if there are not many bear hunting houndsmen. At least if the hound hunting for bears is allowed as a fall hunt.

Some would say that it is selfish of elk hunters to not want bear hunting houndsmen in the woods with them in elk season. Maybe it is. From those experiences I mention, it seems that hound hunting for bears has more impact on the other hunters in the woods, than the other way around.

I admit to not being excited about this idea. Maybe I would get used to it and it would be no big deal.

I do know that if we are chasing bears with hounds (or baiting) without specific accommodations in known grizzly areas, we are serving up some home run pitches for the folks who want to continue using grizzlies as their cash cow. If this passes, I'll start a pool of how long it will be before use of hounds is mentioned in a lawsuit by the drive by litigators.

That said, we've been down this road before and it was voted down. We now have a freshman legislator who maybe he thinks we don't know what is best for ourselves.

Thanks sir. That means a lot. I am sorry that you had some conflicts with hound guys. There are some bad apples, maybe even a lot of them, in the hound world, and I hate that you had to deal with that. Sharing the woods is one thing, but what you experienced was simply not right. It would have left a bad taste in mouth as well.

The topic is very nuanced. My pitch is that hunters know more about hound hunting and think deeply into the many moving parts of preserving hunting. Hound hunting is not for everyone, and may not be for everywhere, but it is a special thing and I hope the sport continues.

Idaho has a system for limiting out of state hound hunters. You must draw a Nonres hound hunter permit to run hounds or shoot any animal over hounds (this requirement is dropped if you pay an outfitter). It works here and I believe it is reasonable.

 

[Gerald Martin]

In my experiences of running lions with hounds and being around hound guys, I have come to the conclusion that hound hunters are some of the best people to be around or some of the worst. It all depends on their character.
Their character depends on their focus and motivation. Some hounds men focus on their dogs and all that goes in to the hunt. The kill is only a small part of completing the circle of success and often times isn’t even a part of the hunt. Those guys will make incredible investments, sacrifices and effort to keep their dogs safe and do it right.

The other side of the spectrum is the guys who concentrate on treed or dead lions as a measurement of their manhood and ego. The dogs and everything else necessary to hunt are just means to an end. Ethics, relationships, legal parameters are all subject to be bent or disregarded if they inhibit “success.”

I am grateful to have been privileged to spend time with some of the first group.

 

[mtmiller]

The rub came with the first group being rather obnoxious and almost running us over as we walked down a road that had been gated. They were from out of state, as were we. I wasn't took keen on them driving around a gate, so as they drove past I asked them if they knew that this road was closed, to which they rambled on some BS about the "Forest Circus" and their opinion that roads shouldn't be closed. Not a good impression of bear hunting houndsmen, though I know a lot of lion hunting houndsmen in Montana. The second year was a similar outcome on that day's elk hunt, though I didn't have an encounter on a closed road.

I would love to know if this was during the filming era.

 

[ChaosOneZero]

Full disclosure: I am a houndsman, but I do not live in Montana nor plan on hunting in Montana with my hounds.

The biggest argument against this is: I don't have hounds and like spot and stalk so I am against it. This is fair and I get it. Everyone has their jam and wants to keep it the best it can be. But one thing to perhaps consider is Montana is growing more and more liberal and when hunting opportunities get taken away, it is incrementally (see California). They stopped lion hunting with hounds, then lion hunting completely, then even bringing a part of a lion across the state line became illegal, then hunting with hounds for bears, then hunting with hounds for bobcats, then they just tried to get all bear hunting outlawed. They succeeded on all but the last one, but will eventually win because it is California. Then they will start on the next lowest hanging fruit, whatever that is. The goal is outlawing hunting.

When they start this in Montana, and they will because bear hunting is the low hanging fruit because they are cute and anthropomorphized in our society, they won't start by saying, "let's get rid of bear hunting altogether." That is, unless there is already no baiting and hound hunting for them to start with first. Hound hunting as a new method of legal pursuit could be a buffer for that, but won't if it is not there. It is uncommon for hunting opportunities to be added rather than taken away. Consider taking advantage of this while you can. It will at least delay the time between now and when you cannot hunt bears in Montana at all. It took years and a lot of steps in California before hunters realized what was happening and started making a fuss about it to legislatures. Hunters who simply wait until their preferred method or game animal is attacked before they care are not helping the cause.

I do not agree with this whole idea that there will be these giant conflicts with hounds and grizzly bears, as with the idea that somehow Montana legislatures will be saving people's lives by not passing this. Besides that I think it is untrue that grizzlies would be killing hound hunters, the legislature would also be saving lives by outlawing anyone on public land in grizzly country, so let's not go down that line of reasoning because it won't benefit us.

Also, Idaho does not shut down hound hunting in every unit with grizzly bears. This is categorically false and misleading. They shut down some but not all. I know there are grizzly bears in plenty of units where hound hunting for bears is legal. Trail camera pictures do not lie. I think the idea that grizzlies will kill a bunch of hounds is also false, as is the idea that a bunch of grizzly bears will somehow die from hound hunting. I know people whose hounds have run grizzlies inadvertently. I would not call this common, but it is by no means rare in Idaho where people hunt them in places where black and grizzly bears live. It is not a big deal. They bay up and the dogs are either pulled off or shocked off. The accidentally killed grizzly bears are not from hound guys. I also disagree with tiptoeing around anti-hunters in hopes of getting a legalized grizzly season. Hound hunting black bears in Montana will not be a defining issue in that debate. It'll be with whatever judge(s) gets the Idaho and Wyoming cases next. I do not see how hunters really gain by lobbying to prevent an entire method of pursuit from becoming legal with the false hope that because of no hound hunting black bears Montana will somehow get a grizzly season which will produce like 3 tags statewide maybe sometime in the next decade or two.

Wolves kill hounds already. This will not change. They kill way more hounds in the winter because lions and wolves are where the ungulates are, and the ungulates are in a much smaller range in the winter. In Idaho there are many places I simply will not run hounds for lions because of wolves. The probability of an issue is multiplied because the area the deer live in is so small and concentrated, so I play it conservatively and won't hunt some units. Bear hunting is different in respects to wolves killing dogs because the concentrations are diluted because deer and elk start spreading out. Yes, always a chance, but the hound guys know that every time they turn loose so let them make that choice. The hound hunters love their dogs. They are also incredibly valuable to them, monetarily and otherwise. Maybe let them decide risk tolerance for their dogs and themselves.

Another thing you need to consider is that plenty of people are already hunting bears in the spring and fall in Montana with hounds. This is a fact, and these bad apples won't make people like houndsmen more, but the truth is that it does happen. Dogs strike a track from the box and they are turned loose on a "raccoon." Oops, they treed a bear instead. I do not agree with or condone breaking the law intentionally like this even if there is a work around from the letter of the law (how do you prove in court that the houndsman knew it was a bear and not a racoon?) Some are bold enough to actually post pictures of dead bears in Montana with a hound or two in the background with GPS collars on. Guess they were just out walking with their hounds and happened to see a bear and sniped it across the canyon and their walking companions snuck in the picture. Not good and not ok, but the reality. If it was legal it would be more prevalent, but it is still going on in Montana currently and it hasn't ruined spot and stalk from what I am gathering.

If you spot and stalk bears from roads this may impact your hunting at some point or another in the next decade. Hound guys will strike and turn loose from roads. The further in you are, the less of a potential impact. I have spot and stalk hunted bears, baited bears and ran hounds. Others hound hunting has never affected the other two for me yet. Regardless of whether or not it will have an impact, I am of the opinion that increasing hunting opportunity is a good thing, even if it doesn't benefit me the way I would like it to. As for Fin's comment on this bill being brought up continually without success, that may point to the direction that it just will not happen in Montana. As for the comments regarding bear numbers and sustainability in some areas, that is a very valid point that needs to be considered and I know nothing about bear numbers there. Like lions, most treed bears won't be shot, but some will and if an area cannot support varying methods of take without setting quotas, that is really a different debate because you are trading one opportunity (hound hunting) for losing an opportunity (the ability to sustainably hunt bears without the hinderance of a quota system.)

But do consider this: When the day comes that Montana is considering outlawing bear hunting altogether and there is a bill on the table, will the Montana bear hunters be cool with the deer hunters who support outlawing bear hunting because they don't happen to hunt bears themselves? What is happening impacts all hunting, not just your special type of it.

Appreciate your insight, Nick. As others have mentioned, I think you bring some valuable experience and opinions to this thread.

But if we accept the premise of there being real threats to bear hunting, in general, don’t we also have to acknowledge the potential for grizzly/hound interactions and disasters as being a probably catalyst for anti-hunters to pursue outright bans on bear hunting? That is, why assume the additional risk of giving anti-hunters fodder for their cause when there’s no shortage of opportunity to harvest plenty of bears via S&S?

 

[Big Fin]

I would love to know if this was during the filming era.

Yes, there is footage of some of it, for both encounters. But I'm not as old as Uncle Larry, so I doubt the audience would give me the same pass Larry gets for expletive filled content.

 

[rwc101]

Yes, there is footage of some of it, for both encounters. But I'm not as old as Uncle Larry, so I doubt the audience would give me the same pass Larry gets for expletive filled content.

I'll donate to RMEF if we get Big Fin dropping an F bomb footage.

 

[Big Fin]

I'll donate to RMEF if we get Big Fin dropping an F bomb footage.

You looking to be a Life Member?

 

[rwc101]

You looking to be a Life Member?

Depends if I ever see that $1,400 stimulus check.

 

[bigsky2]

Did anyone watch the hearing on this yesterday?

 

[EYJONAS!]

Did anyone watch the hearing on this yesterday?

I didn't and was wondering the same

 

[MT Bound]

@IdahoNick is a great spokesman for hound hunters, the exact opposite of the groups I met when two different New Mexico elk hunts were impacted by bear hunters and their hounds. It was a cluster. We could hear trucks and dogs down below. Wasn't too long and the woods were full of barking hounds. Not sure if that impacted the elk we had seen in the area, but on both occasions, no elk were spotted when the bear hunting houndsmen were there.

That wasn't the real rub, as I've had to accommodate my hunts to respect the uses of a lot of different public land users; hikers, wood cutters, mountain bikers, etc. All comes with public lands being open to all of us.

The rub came with the first group being rather obnoxious and almost running us over as we walked down a road that had been gated. They were from out of state, as were we. I wasn't took keen on them driving around a gate, so as they drove past I asked them if they knew that this road was closed, to which they rambled on some BS about the "Forest Circus" and their opinion that roads shouldn't be closed. Not a good impression of bear hunting houndsmen, though I know a lot of lion hunting houndsmen in Montana. The second year was a similar outcome on that day's elk hunt, though I didn't have an encounter on a closed road.

On that second hunt, I did talk to some NM elk hunters at the trail head about the bear hunters. They commented that they are inundated with out-of-state houndsmen chasing bears. I would be interested to know if @Valley1320 has seen a lot of non-resident bear houndsmen in New Mexico, as was stated by the locals I talked to and pitched camp with on those hunts.

NM is mostly OTC for bear, all fall seasons, and that they are a place where guys with coon hounds, lion hounds, and whatever other houndsmen come to chase bears. This was northern NM. The locals seem to be getting fed up with the huge increase in non-resident bear hunting houndsmen coming during elk hunting seasons.

This was a few years back. Not sure if much has changed since then. I've not encountered bear hunting houndsmen in western or central NM.

Given how many hunters are on the Montana elk woods during elk season, a number far higher than NM, I am sure the experiences I had in NM will be repeated many times over during MT elk seasons, even if there are not many bear hunting houndsmen. At least if the hound hunting for bears is allowed as a fall hunt.

Some would say that it is selfish of elk hunters to not want bear hunting houndsmen in the woods with them in elk season. Maybe it is. From those experiences I mention, it seems that hound hunting for bears has more impact on the other hunters in the woods, than the other way around.

I admit to not being excited about this idea. Maybe I would get used to it and it would be no big deal.

I do know that if we are chasing bears with hounds (or baiting) without specific accommodations in known grizzly areas, we are serving up some home run pitches for the folks who want to continue using grizzlies as their cash cow. If this passes, I'll start a pool of how long it will be before use of hounds is mentioned in a lawsuit by the drive by litigators.

That said, we've been down this road before and it was voted down. We now have a freshman legislator who maybe he thinks we don't know what is best for ourselves.

Some good points in here that I didn't consider about this proposed bill and the conflicts it could cause, thanks for the insight from multiple perspectives.

 

[Bowhunter65]

Healthy debate within the hunting community about methods of take, seasons, etc are good for the overall health of the sport. While I am not in favor of this bill, I think the guys who have hunted bears with hounds have some good observations, and of course there will be opposition to running game with animals outside of the SE or elsewhere where the niche is long-standing (lions).

As for this bill, I think the focus needs to remain on the unnecessary conflict that it would create, as well as the safety issue for hound & human. MT is not WY or ID or anywhere else due to the widespread interconnectedness of Grizzly bear & black bear habitats.

Let the anti-hunting crowd go off on their anti-hound philosophy, and hunters should stick to the real issues at hand.

Healthy debate, you mentioned dead hounds, how is that healthy, please explain.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Healthy debate, you mentioned dead hounds, how is that healthy, please explain.

The dogs die doing what they enjoy ... but maybe not so much the part about being disemboweled.

 

[EYJONAS!]

Healthy debate, you mentioned dead hounds, how is that healthy, please explain.

I'm not seeing where Ben mentions anything about dead hounds. Unfortunately dead hounds is a reality that one can face from time to time for a quite a variety of reasons. It's the last thing anyone wants.

I bet guys that hunt hogs with hounds would experience this more than most..... I've heard some horror stories of pigs annihilating dogs.

 

[Bowhunter65]

I'm not seeing where Ben mentions anything about dead hounds. Unfortunately dead hounds is a reality that one can face from time to time for a quite a variety of reasons. It's the last thing anyone wants.

I bet guys that hunt hogs with hounds would experience this more than most..... I've heard some horror stories of pigs annihilating dogs.

first page, 3rd post

 

[EYJONAS!]

I see now, well unfortunately like I said it's a reality and putting hounds out that time of year in certain areas in Montana is just asking for it. Sure guys I'm sure we'll avoid certain areas but the fact is no one is for certain where the griz are or denning wolves. I think Ben is pretty spot on with his post. It'll be a rodeo in some areas before guys figure out running areas. Plus bears don't tree like lions do, which opens the opportunity up for confrontation there too. Big black bears will post up on boulders or rock out cropping when they get caught most of the time. Smaller bears would tree but a griz.....mmmm I don't think so.

It's all part of the territory when you have this as a topic in Montana. No one wants dead hounds....

 

[Bowhunter65]

I see now, well unfortunately like I said it's a reality and putting hounds out that time of year in certain areas in Montana is just asking for it. Sure guys I'm sure we'll avoid certain areas but the fact is no one is for certain where the griz are or denning wolves. I think Ben is pretty spot on with his post. It'll be a rodeo in some areas before guys figure out running areas. Plus bears don't tree like lions do, which opens the opportunity up for confrontation there too. Big black bears will post up on boulders or rock out cropping when they get caught most of the time. Smaller bears would tree but a griz.....mmmm I don't think so.

It's all part of the territory when you have this as a topic in Montana. No one wants dead hounds....

nothing to do with hounds being hurt by a bear. but by another hunter, that is not right.

 

[EYJONAS!]

nothing to do with hounds being hurt by a bear. but by another hunter, that is not right.

I guess I'm not seeing where your coming up with hunters hurting hounds......