Solving Point Creep

[88man]

With no comparable I guess look at what a similar unit in Colorado or New Mexico then come up with a crazy formula of (discounts) and maybe use the base of a unit wide landowner voucher cost

 

[ImBillT]

Preference points need to go away completely. I’m not terribly opposed to bonus points that aren’t squared or cubed.

Eventually people are going to have to stop stealing from their children. They paid ultra low insurance premiums when they were going and healthy, but today they want the younger generations to subsidize healthcare so that their premiums don’t rise too much with age. They hunted with liberal limits and seasons, they hunted with no point systems, then when they discovered that certain dream hunts were not likely within reach they created a system to increase their odds to the detriment of everyone younger.

Then long term end result of point systems is that more people will die or become disabled without ever using their points than will ever hunt the dream hunts, and everyone who gets to go will be too old to enjoy it to its fullest. How many people today draw their dream hunt and wish they could have hiked and hunted they way they could 10, 15, 20 years ago? They’re condemning their children to the same fate at best. I suspect that preference point only systems will go away before it reaches its climax. If not, the only young people in the glory units will be there to assist their parents and grandparents.

 

[ImBillT]

Allow point holders to gift, devise, or sell their points. I would gladly sell my accumulated points at the going-market rate and buy a “private” hunt in Alaska or Africa with the proceeds. One could argue its a selfish concept, but I would counter that its simple capitalism and free-markets.Who owns the accumulated points - the State or the pointholder?

This completely defeats the purpose of public land hunting, which is to provide access and opportunity to everyone, not just the wealthiest among us. Imagine how many people would have 1000pts after purchasing them from numerous different point sellers. At least the average number of points would go down within a few years...or would it? How many people would then apply their children, spouses, extended family, friends, etc. just to gift themselves the points.

When you buy a point, you’re not buying a commodity. If points became transferable then there would literally be no difference between hunting public and private land, and the “market rate” would result in prices similar to or higher than the price of hunting private land.

 

[ImBillT]

I don't like when the rules and systems change after the program has started. IE; Colorado removed ranching for wildlife from NR & cut the NR allocation % of NR after the system started. Now there are folks talking about trying to change the WYOMING system to not allow Pt averaging on group apps. A few of my friends started building Pts in wyoming when their children were small with the sole reason of doing a good/better hunt with them when they were older or after college. I have an open mind and I appreciate people who give their time to make things better. However, everything is cause and effect somewhere & someway when the deal changes after it started it just seems less fair to the people who play by the rules. I know they care about wildlife management and habitat but if they are spending their time changing a very good system less time is spent on what really matters.

What you’re saying is that your friends started acquiring points for their kids when their kids were young, but they themselves continued hunting, and used the points of their children to boost their party app points once their kids were out of college. If your friends had not used any of their Wyoming points since the day they started acquiring points for their children so that they could have a really great hunt with them, then point averaging would not matter because they would all have the same number of points. It is only if he burned his Wyoming points, or didn’t pay the adult point price that he would benefit from averaging points on a party app with his children.

 

[ImBillT]

It’d be interesting to see how much tags would cost to offset the preference point money. It would probably price a lot of people out of buying the tags.

In most states it’s not more than $50 extra for the point. Raise the license price a little, raise the tag price a little. Might actually get more apps from people who wouldn’t enter the preference point game. I know I won’t buy a point in a preference point only state. I would only be subsiding the tags of all the people who got in on the ground floor and insuring that my points were wasted upon my death.

 

[idelkslayer]

What you’re saying is that your friends started acquiring points for their kids when their kids were young, but they themselves continued hunting, and used the points of their children to boost their party app points once their kids were out of college. If your friends had not used any of their Wyoming points since the day they started acquiring points for their children so that they could have a really great hunt with them, then point averaging would not matter because they would all have the same number of points. It is only if he burned his Wyoming points, or didn’t pay the adult point price that he would benefit from averaging points on a party app with his children.

I think what he meant is similar to a strategy I have recently considered. I started accumulating points in Wyoming but by the time I had enough to consider applying for tags my kids are now old enough to hunt, or close to it. I'm 6 points in and this is the first year oldest son can buy points, my youngest can't buy points for another 3 years. If instead of using my points now, I continue to accumulate my own points and buy points for my kids then in a few years point averaging will allow me to elevate my kids to higher point draw and we can all hunt together even though the youngest will only have a point or two.

 

[jtm307]

But a decent area, is getting very hard. ... I am not expecting to hunt 2-3 elk per year or even elk every year, but when it starts to look like once in a decade or more... Maybe I should take up golf.

There are many more decent general units in WY than non-decent ones. Had you been applying for general units, you could have been hunting elk roughly every other year, based on current odds.

 

[BrentD]

There are many more decent general units in WY than non-decent ones. Had you been applying for general units, you could have been hunting elk roughly every other year, based on current odds.

By LAST YEAR'S odds, it would be once every 3rd year.

Yes, I have hunting general tags, and they can be decent.

Swung and missed again this year. Not terribly surprised. Even a little bit of point creep would wipe us out with 5.5 PP.

Lost out on the cow tag for second choices as well.



I had an undergrad in my office right before class today. He was interested in the bones hanging on my office walls. Said he wanted to try elk hunting someday. I told him to start buying points - lots of them asap. He probably doesn't have beer money to spare, much less point money, but what the hell.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Preference points need to go away completely.

I think we you look at prefer points and point creep in general you need to consider how it effects you but also the wildlife/agency budgets.

OTC units provide a decent amount of revenue and the opportunity for everyone. There is enough opportunity in the west to hunt pronghorn, deer, and elk every year. The units that require a prohibitive number of points to draw are trophy units and if you think about it provide a disproportionate about of funding to the state. An OTC tag might cost $500 a 20pt unit might cost $50(20) + $500 = $1500, additionally there are probably lots of individuals that burn or walk away from points. Further, if every state was a lottery, would you apply to as many states? It would be much harder to gauge when you would draw, sure you might still apply to every state for sheep as they have 1/200 or worse odds and you are extremely unlikely to get 2 tags in a year. Currently I have elk points in MT, WY, and CO, and I plan on using them before I get 4 in each state. Assuming no points system I would have to apply to each state with lets say with between 1/4 and 1/2 odds. With those kind of numbers I would be hesitant to apply in all three states each year and would probably focus on 1 or 2. Assuming everyone thought the same way this would also make it easier to draw low point tags in various states each year.

Nothing I'm saying here is new, everyone knows the point systems increase revenue.

I find myself thinking more and more about our goals as a society, in this case the goal is to improve herds and honestly who gives a crap if it benefits me personally.

 

[mtmiller]

I told him to start buying points - lots of them asap. He probably doesn't have beer money to spare, much less point money, but what the hell.

A little quick math on my end. 50/12=4.16666666666

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Who was it that made the joke a while back that BrentD somehow turns every thread into a thread about BrentD? haha

 

[ImBillT]

I think we you look at prefer points and point creep in general you need to consider how it effects you but also the wildlife/agency budgets.

OTC units provide a decent amount of revenue and the opportunity for everyone. There is enough opportunity in the west to hunt pronghorn, deer, and elk every year. The units that require a prohibitive number of points to draw are trophy units and if you think about it provide a disproportionate about of funding to the state. An OTC tag might cost $500 a 20pt unit might cost $50(20) + $500 = $1500, additionally there are probably lots of individuals that burn or walk away from points. Further, if every state was a lottery, would you apply to as many states? It would be much harder to gauge when you would draw, sure you might still apply to every state for sheep as they have 1/200 or worse odds and you are extremely unlikely to get 2 tags in a year. Currently I have elk points in MT, WY, and CO, and I plan on using them before I get 4 in each state. Assuming no points system I would have to apply to each state with lets say with between 1/4 and 1/2 odds. With those kind of numbers I would be hesitant to apply in all three states each year and would probably focus on 1 or 2. Assuming everyone thought the same way this would also make it easier to draw low point tags in various states each year.

Nothing I'm saying here is new, everyone knows the point systems increase revenue.

I find myself thinking more and more about our goals as a society, in this case the goal is to improve herds and honestly who gives a crap if it benefits me personally.

I’m not convinced that points increase revenue. So 20pts at $50 each is $1000, but so is entering the random draw 20 times at $50 per entry. In the first situation I have to pay $1000 for twenty years knowing I won’t go hunting this year, and not knowing if I’ll be alive, healthy, if that state will still offer public hunting, if the point system will still be intact etc. Under the second system I might draw a great hunt this year, or the next etc.

I would apply in more states if preference points did not exist. I’m not against bonus points, but do prefer no points at all. Don’t apply to hunts with 1/4 to 1/2 odds in every state. Pick some hard to draw hunts in most states, and high odds in one or two. Rotate from year to year where you apply for your hard and easy to draw hunts so that you can hunt different states and sometimes draw a glory tag. If a state held second draw, and partially refunded a tag if you drew a tag in another state they would get more applicants because applicants wouldn’t be as fearful of drawing 2-3 tags.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Who was it that made the joke a while back that BrentD somehow turns every thread into a thread about BrentD? haha

 

[BrentD]

man, you sure got your panties wound up tight today gh. Predictable though.

How did you do? Get your tag?

 

[The Hedgehog]

no tag for me. just as well. would hate to think of the gas money and wear and tear on the old truck.

No point creeps for me. The permit I applied for last year was more than 3 times as easy to draw this time around. The permit I applied for this year was almost twice as easy to draw. Go figure.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I’m not convinced that points increase revenue. So 20pts at $50 each is $1000, but so is entering the random draw 20 times at $50 per entry.... Under the second system I might draw a great hunt this year, or the next etc.

Or you might draw never... under a pref point system you are guaranteed a tag if you live long enough, under a bonus point system you could put in for 45 years and not draw while someone else might draw 4 times. As far as increasing revenue, in order to get a tag in a pref point system you have to buy a point every year in a bonus point system you don't. I could apply for MT sheep every year and never buy a point and still have a chance, in CO I have to buy a point.

I'm just trying to explain the arguments for or against not saying pref-point systems are the way to go. Personally I think out of all the systems used the hybrid point system for the big three in CO is the best. Your first 3 points are pref points then it switches to bonus points. I honestly think they convert deer and elk to that model as well.

 

[BrentD]

Yeah, probably for the best.

 

[ImBillT]

Or you might draw never... under a pref point system you are guaranteed a tag if you live long enough, under a bonus point system you could put in for 45 years and not draw while someone else might draw 4 times. As far as increasing revenue, in order to get a tag in a pref point system you have to buy a point every year in a bonus point system you don't. I could apply for MT sheep every year and never buy a point and still have a chance, in CO I have to buy a point.

I'm just trying to explain the arguments for or against not saying pref-point systems are the way to go. Personally I think out of all the systems used the hybrid point system for the big three in CO is the best. Your first 3 points are pref points then it switches to bonus points. I honestly think they convert deer and elk to that model as well.

You might never draw either way. Why are you so sure you’ll be alive and healthy tomorrow let alone 20 years from now? If it takes 20pts to draw a preference point tag today, it could take 30-40pts to draw that same tag twenty years from now.

There are a lot of hunts that many of us would never draw in our lifetimes regardless of point systems. A preference point system does nothing more than insure that if we do draw it, we’ll be too old and broken to enjoy it the way we would have at 25-35yrs old, as well as completely prevent a lot of younger hunters from ever having the opportunity you so desperately want.

 

[BrentD]

I'mBillT. I think you hit it dead center. It is pretty discourage to a first timer and there is little to recommend it to an old timer either. I thought PP were a a good thing, but HT has convinced my I was wrong.

The one nice thing about this old system is that you could try for elk, fail, and then try for something else. Next year, it will be decide, elk or deer or antelope, pick one and hope for the best.

 

[The Hedgehog]

The glass is half full Brent