SE Montana winter kill

[mtmuley]

When and what lead to the demise of western mt. mule deer hunting? I never hunted western mt years ago. So was it ever really really good? Thanks

I've hunted the Bitterroot a long time. We killed good bucks on the West side when I was a kid, but usually weren't too picky. You can still dig up a good buck with a little determination and perseverance. The West side is tough country. mtmuley

 

[----]

When and what lead to the demise of western mt. mule deer hunting? I never hunted western mt years ago. So was it ever really really good? Thanks

Too many folks walking around with rifles during the rut, and building houses in winter range.

FWP was reactive to the population boom rather than proactive, and by the time they realized there was a problem and started going to limited entry the deer were gone.

There used to be a lot of good bucks killed around Missoula. I know at one point Missoula county had more mule deer B&C entries than any other Montana county. Even when I was in high school 15 years ago the hunting was noticeably better. There was 20% less people living here then also. I can't imagine what it would've been like in the 70's and 80's with 50% as many people.

An older guy I know killed a 230" buck within a stone's throw of where the RMEF headquarters are now. That's nothing but subdivisions now.

There's still good bucks that come out of the area, but 90% of them are coming from the permit units.

 

[TheJason]

Significant habitat and range condition changes are also a big player in this game.

 

[----]

Significant habitat and range condition changes are also a big player in this game.

Are you thinking more of the sage/mahagony landscapes?

In the timber country I grew up hunting, we've got a lot more burns now than they ever had 30-50 years ago. In the general units a lot of those burns are void of mule deer. They seem to see a bump in deer numbers 2-6 years after the burn, but then it drops back off dramatically.

To the layman (me), we basically traded clearcuts for burns. Maybe the clearcuts provided better habitat. I'm definitely not an expert on the matter.

 

[TheJason]

Why mule deer are declining elsewhere in Montana

While the mule deer population in southeastern Montana is booming, numbers elsewhere in the state—and throughout the West—remain lower than several decades ago. They will likely stay that way. The population decline stems largely from a decrease in quality habitat available to mule deer in central and western Montana caused mainly by:

The spread of conifers: Douglas fir, Rocky Mountain juniper, and other conifers have spread across mountainsides and foothills. The conifers outcompete the forbs, shrubs (such as mountain mahogany, antelope bitterbrush, and sagebrush), and young quaking aspen that mule deer eat. This “conifer expansion” has been caused by decades of fire suppression and reduced tree cutting on federal, state, and private lands.

Competition from elk and whitetails: Elk and mule deer share much of the same habitat. Though their diets don’t overlap completely, an elk eats three times more than a mule deer and is better able to reach browse in deep snow. In much of Montana’s prime mule deer country, elk numbers are now three or four times greater than they were in the 1980s, and they have taken over areas previously dominated by mule deer. For instance, in several hunting districts in southwestern Montana, winter elk counts have increased from a total of about 4,000 in 1980 to more than 17,000 in 2015. Mule deer numbers in those same hunting districts have declined by 64 percent.

Mule deer also face competition from white-tailed deer, which generally do better in areas altered by human development.
“The increase in conifers, elk, and whitetails in mule deer country is the new normal,” says John Vore, chief of FWP’s Game Management Bureau. “We’ll never have muley numbers in western Montana like we did in the 1980s unless we can magically change all that and make everything like it was 40 years ago.”

This is from the link MTTW referenced, posted by Huntingwife, and some pretty accurate information.

In addition (and 1_pointer, Mtmiller, and BuzzH can probably speak better to this than I can), there are other factors. I had the privilege of sitting out a deluge many years ago in the upper Lochsa River, one wet October day with a fine gentleman who had recently retired as the Wildlife Director for IDFG. We talked extensively about mule deer populations and what was driving the declines. He spoke to the marked changes in grazing practices over the years, and how grazing practices in the early to mid 1900's greatly altered the landscape to favor mule deer. In addition, logging was very prevalent and on a rather large scale.

Moving ahead, habitats have changed and now favor elk because of improved grassland communities. Elk aren't affected nearly as much by conifer encroachment as mule deer are. There must be other subtle issues at play as well. The FWP biologist in Dillon is an old friend of mine, and we talked for a quite a while about this issue, specifically speaking to the Upper Ruby and the Snowcrests. This area has been limited entry for many years, yet there really aren't that many deer there. Obviously there is some limiting factor.

I also think, as you pointed out, mule deer are more susceptible to hunting pressure and are one of the canary indicators. I think hunting them well into the rut is past its time for much of Montana. Maybe the mountain populations are not as resilient as the prairie deer? I don't know. It's a confounding issue for sure.

 

[antlerradar]

I also think, as you pointed out, mule deer are more susceptible to hunting pressure and are one of the canary indicators. I think hunting them well into the rut is past its time for much of Montana. Maybe the mountain populations are not as resilient as the prairie deer? I don't know. It's a confounding issue for sure.

Now we are getting around to the problems for mule deer in Montana. With all the changes to habitat in western Montana we still hunt mule deer like it was the 1970's. Eastern Montana can no longer make up for the decline in western Montana even on the good years. After the winter we are having this year we will not even come close.

Greenhorn hit on why the prairie deer are more resilient. Large blocks of private land with high quality feed where populations are allowed to rebound. The big blocks of Public land were recovering at a much slower pace.

 

[mtmuley]

Now we are getting around to the problems for mule deer in Montana. With all the changes to habitat in western Montana we still hunt mule deer like it was the 1970's. Eastern Montana can no longer make up for the decline in western Montana even on the good years. After the winter we are having this year we will not even come close.

What about higher country mule deer? The hard to access country. Country where pressure is less. To me, that is where to hunt them. But, Montana doesn't have the reputation of big high country muleys like Colorado or Wyoming. What is different? mtmuley

 

[antlerradar]

What about higher country mule deer? The hard to access country. Country where pressure is less. To me, that is where to hunt them. But, Montana doesn't have the reputation of big high country muleys like Colorado or Wyoming. What is different? mtmuley

We shoot them when they come out to the high mountains in late November

 

[mtmuley]

We shoot them when they come out to the high mountains in late November

Rut hunting? mtmuley

 

[timmy]

Is there any other western state that has a general rut hunt?? I don’t think so but I could be wrong.

 

[TheJason]

We shoot them when they come out to the high mountains in late November

That, and Montana does not have the quantity and quality of summer range you see in other areas.

 

[TheJason]

Greenhorn hit on why the prairie deer are more resilient. Large blocks of private land with high quality feed where populations are allowed to rebound. The big blocks of Public land were recovering at a much slower pace.

I agree that is certainly a large part of the equation, but I’m not sure it’s all of it. Years ago the common thought was you couldn’t overhunt whitetail deer. Turns out mountain whitetails are much more susceptible to too much hunting pressure relative to prairie and farmland populations. I’m wondering if the same holds true for mule deer.

 

[TheJason]

Is there any other western state that has a general rut hunt?? I don’t think so but I could be wrong.

Not for mule deer with rifles.

 

[1_pointer]

This is from the link MTTW referenced, posted by Huntingwife, and some pretty accurate information.

In addition (and 1_pointer, Mtmiller, and BuzzH can probably speak better to this than I can), there are other factors. I had the privilege of sitting out a deluge many years ago in the upper Lochsa River, one wet October day with a fine gentleman who had recently retired as the Wildlife Director for IDFG. We talked extensively about mule deer populations and what was driving the declines. He spoke to the marked changes in grazing practices over the years, and how grazing practices in the early to mid 1900's greatly altered the landscape to favor mule deer. In addition, logging was very prevalent and on a rather large scale.

Moving ahead, habitats have changed and now favor elk because of improved grassland communities. Elk aren't affected nearly as much by conifer encroachment as mule deer are. There must be other subtle issues at play as well. The FWP biologist in Dillon is an old friend of mine, and we talked for a quite a while about this issue, specifically speaking to the Upper Ruby and the Snowcrests. This area has been limited entry for many years, yet there really aren't that many deer there. Obviously there is some limiting factor.

I also think, as you pointed out, mule deer are more susceptible to hunting pressure and are one of the canary indicators. I think hunting them well into the rut is past its time for much of Montana. Maybe the mountain populations are not as resilient as the prairie deer? I don't know. It's a confounding issue for sure.

"Improved" range conditions from the past have resulted in more grass and less browse than during the high mule deer number years. Another interesting correlation (note I did not say causation) is the number of permitted sheep vs mule deer populations. Those two species have a high dietary overlap. Provide sheep feed and you are providing more deer feed. In the 1960's, the BLM alone was doing vegetation treatments of over 1 million acres per year. The scale and aggressiveness of treatments has gone down a ton since then. IMO more aggressive vegetation management programs, especially in areas of conifer/juniper encroachment, in areas with sagebrush and aspen would be a boost to mule deer.

 

[Crumb]

Seems to me Montana’s deer season is just like ours in Minnesota, at least Montana limits the number of some of the tags. Come on over to Minnesota if you think it’s bad in Montana, unlimited buck tags for residents and non residents and oh yeah like 3000 or so wolves that they don’t let us manage!

 

[Solduc]

Met Craig, the bio, this past hunting season, when he came into our camp in the Tendoys. He pointed out the advancement downslope of the white pine and Douglas fir forest. Mountain mahogany was grazed beyond reach of deer. Quite a lesson especially comparing timber line now with old photos of the same mountain.
Also noticed the low numbers of mule deer when hunting the Snowcrest, but do see a few nice bucks

 

[Carnage2011]

Met Craig, the bio, this past hunting season, when he came into our camp in the Tendoys. He pointed out the advancement downslope of the white pine and Douglas fir forest. Mountain mahogany was grazed beyond reach of deer. Quite a lesson especially comparing timber line now with old photos of the same mountain.
Also noticed the low numbers of mule deer when hunting the Snowcrest, but do see a few nice bucks

Low numbers in the snowcrest? I see 200-300 deer a day in there during rifle season. The snowcrest is one of the few areas that have actually improved in recent years. Conifer encroachment is definitely an issue in SW MT though.

 

[antlerradar]

I agree that is certainly a large part of the equation, but I’m not sure it’s all of it. Years ago the common thought was you couldn’t overhunt whitetail deer. Turns out mountain whitetails are much more susceptible to too much hunting pressure relative to prairie and farmland populations. I’m wondering if the same holds true for mule deer.

I would suspect that the non agricultural populations are more susceptible to hunting pressure yet here in seven we have 11000 doe tags and zero restrictions of where the tags are filled.

 

[Keeptrying]

Not for mule deer with rifles.

Sodak

 

[LCH]

Sodak

I wouldn't really consider South Dakota a "general season" hunt though. Tags are area specific, and muley tags can be tough to get for NRs.

Wyoming has a few general areas (A, F, X) that can be hunted in November.

Idaho has a few general areas that can be hunted in November, but are basically the same as limited entry due to the logistics of getting in/out.