School is in session

[Big Fin]

If these guys only knew what was going on behind the scenes. I almost feel bad for them - well, let's not go that far Fin.

Once we know for sure, how the entire outcome is going to play out, I need to give a play by play chronology of what has been going on over the last three months.

If there is one thing all of you can do, contact your Congressional delegation and tell them that accepting the wolf nut settlement is grounds for getting un-elected. My biggest concern is that we are so close. I mean so damn close.

If the politicians withdraw the legislative efforts, in exchange for this settlement, we lose a lot of hard-earned turf.

Point is this. MT and ID are so close to having our own wolf destiny. Some hunting groups are trying their damndest to keep us from that. You would have to ask them why that is. I have asked, and got no answers - Imagine that.

 

[drahthaar]

Maybe one day, when all this blows over, with whatever the outcome, I would like it if you lay some of this out, the goings on behind the scenes, I mean.

 

[elk_hunter]

Man, that ABE...dirty little bastard. Did you see his reply to mine? And mine to his? Laffin!

 

[Lawnboy]

It's all about hitting the home run Fin What I think is funny is these people who we didn't hear boo from for eight years coming crying. Now that wolves might be coming to their state they want the others who have suffered for years to wait and help them. I say get the ball rolling while we can.

 

[tjones]

I am thinking most attorneys would have their hands full with Fin. The other thing I see is Fin and my wife have the same strategy when the argue, they are in it to win it and take no prisoners. I would not mess with either.

 

[Drake4]

I am thinking most attorneys would have their hands full with Fin. The other thing I see is Fin and my wife have the same strategy when the argue, they are in it to win it and take no prisoners. I would not mess with either.

Yeah..there is definitely a difference between an educated, articulate argument and someone who spouts off nonsense with no background or facts. It is not very hard to tell one from the other.

 

[shoots-straight]

When I was a kid, and you got in playground scuffles, there was always this one kid that no matter how many times you knocked the crap of or how bad you beat him, he always came back for more. That kid be ABE.

 

[warmer]

Let me apologize in advance.

As a relative newcomer to this site, and someone without a lick of experience or background in the Great Wolf Debate, I'm pretty lost on who stands where. I'd bet I'm not alone as, from the limited reading of these threads I've done, it sounds as though certain groups are shifting their stance like a kid who has to pee. Real bad.

Since the subject line is "School is in session", anybody want to give me a quick edu-macation of what bills are currently up for grabs, what's at stake and who (meaning the groups, not necessarily the individuals) stands where? I'd take the Reader's Digest version, or even more from whoever is willing. If you're more comfortable with a PM, that works too. I am interested in catching up, but I'm afraid with my limited time to play catch up I'll be rounding first about the time the fans are headed home from a twi-night DH.

Appreciate any of your time on this subject as it seems like it will be a hot topic, and only getting hotter.

I'm in the same boat as you, interested in knowing how this all shakes out.

 

[fowladdict]

Fin or anyone else with the know,

Can you explain the 10j rule and why Idaho and Montana never used it? I'm trying to figure out why people bash ID F&G for the wolf problems we have here. Apparently if they used said rule, Idaho would be controlling the wolf numbers for a while now??

As I understand it the 10j only allows states to take action on wolves that have attacked livestock or humans. It does not allow management of wolves impacting wildlife numbers?

 

[Big Fin]

I'm in the same boat as you, interested in knowing how this all shakes out.

Here is the quick outline,

MT and ID have wolf management plans approved by the USFWS. WY does not have approval, yet. The MT and ID plans were approved a long time ago. I think in 2005 or 2006. WY was approved, then rejected in court, then re-sbumitted and rejected, and they still are in a spat with USFWS over such.

USFWS allowed for MT and ID to go forward with out plans and hunting seasons. That gave us wolf hunts in 2009.

Wolf lovers sued, claiming it was all three states, or none of the three states. Federal Judge Malloy agreed with the, so MT and ID lost our wolf season, until such time the USFWS would accept the WY plan. We still don't have our wolf season, as we are waiting for USFWS and WY to settle their feud.

Still no progress with USFWS and WY, though they are meeting this week. Without progress between them, MT and ID sit in the gates, waiting to implement our plans, and watching our elk and moose get eaten by wolves.

Last fall, a bill is introduced by Max Baucus, a Senator from MT. Not a very good bill, but would give MT and ID temporary relief. It dies after the election.

In February, Rep. Simpson from ID works with Senator Tester from MT to get language put in the budget bills that would allow MT and ID to go about our business while WY and the USFWS work out their problems.

Great language, compared to the Baucus bill of last fall, though still not the answer to every single problem. Though it is not a home run, most in the known of political realities view it to be a triple. This language is now called the Simpson-Testser language.

The House and Senate need to get the budget bills to the President, rather than these two and three week stop -gap measures we have seen in the last two months. Those budget bills have the Simpson-Tester language.

Once this Simpson-Tester language was placed in these bills, SFW started lobbying behind the scenes to get the bills killed that would let MT and ID be disconnected from WY. Rumor of such started last month, but it was all confirmed last week.

Last week, word comes down that the Simpson-Tester language has support from both parties and the President. It is going to pass, once Congress approves the final budget. They are still fighting about the budget numbers, but the Simpson-Tester language is safe.

Within 48 hours, the wolf nuts craft a settlement as a smoke screen. They know they are gonna get steamrolled on this one and they are running scared. So, the settlement offer is given to Judge Malloy. He may, or may not, accept it. Hunter say, "Screw the settlement, go for the throat." Going for the throat being a metaphor for getting the Simpson-Tester language passed.

Simultaneously, NRA/SCI/CSF blast SFW/BGF for an email sent to all 535 legislators in DC, where SFW/BGF claimed NRA/SCI/CSF were against the Simpson-Tester language, when they actually supported it. Even though NRA et al told SFW/BGF they did not agree with the release, and in fact supported Simpson-Tester language, the release was sent to Congress.

NRA et al tell the entire world that SFW/BGF blatantly misrepresented their position and last Friday, issued the worst beat down I have ever seen in a press release. You need to read that if you get a chance. It is the worst shellacking you can imagine. Here is the link - http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/13004394711jzrfxykqtu

Not to be outdone, SFW sends their WY attorney, Harriet Hageman on the full scale attack against NRA, et al last Friday. And also admits they are working behind the scenes to kill the Simpson-Tester language. See posts #1 and #2 of this thread.

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=246163&page=2

The heat gets turned up over the weekend, beyond what I even thought was possible. SFW feeling the heat, has the BGF guy, Ryan Benson issue a rebuttal.

Nowhere does he deny that they were working behind the scenes. The release hammers NRA, et al, and claims that the communication that started the spat with NRA was a private communication. As if that changes their position and their actions.

Now, the heat is getting intense. SFW sends out the troops to put out the fires. You see them trying to douse the flames over on MM.

So, the big spats over on MM were trying to get SFW/BGF to come clean as to whether or not they were taking MT and ID hunter money for the wolf issue, then turning around and working to kill the Simpson-Tester language that would disconnect MT and ID from WY. Language that would allow MT and ID hunters to go on about our management of wolves.

Understand that SFW/BGF has their own bill, S.249 in the Senate and HR 509 in the house. They push that as the only solution, bringing about the question of whether or not they were trying to kill all other wolf bills, even the ones that will actually pass, and have the wolf lovers on the run.

S.249 is a regurgitation of prior attempts to remove the ESA. That was attempted in the past, when Bush was Pres and the Republicans controlled both the Senate and the House. That couldn't pass then, and anyone with even the slightest political acumen would bet it won't pass now with Democrats controlling both the White House and the Senate.

Yet, SFW continues to state they have an answer and it lies in S.249. That is how they are raising vast sums of money on the wolf issue. They claim they have a plan, but to date, I don't know of anyone who has seen the plan.

So the crux of the battle amongst hunters is this.

A) Do we support the Simpson-Tester language that gives MT and ID the option of going forward, and allows WY to fight with USFWS without worrying of the affect that they are having on MT and ID?

This bill is most likely going to pass. It is the bill that has the wolf nuts scared. And for whatever reasons, is a bill that SFW/BGF keeps lobbying to kill in their emails, releases, and attacks by their attorneys.

or

B) Do we junk Simpson-Tester, keep the three states connected, and throw our efforts behind SFW/BGF for however long it takes them to remove the ESA? All the while, we could be hunting wolves in MT and ID, and if WY and the USFWS strike a deal, hunting them in WY. And we all know that SFW/BGF does not have the horsepower to get S.249 passed. They never did, and now that they are fighting NRA, they have ZERO chance. Yet, the Kool-aid drinkers are still at the well, slurping it up.

The point we are making is that we need to take the Simpson-Tester language, and go forward getting better solutions for WY. We don't let that be the end of the fight. We keep pushing for as much as we can get, even some of the S.249 language, when at all possible.

The tact SFW/BGF is taking is that we accept nothing other than their bill, S.249. It is still a mystery to most people why they take this stance, a stance destined for failure, and tossing out all the progress we have made to get to this close point.

I will let you decided for yourself why they are pushing the solution that will never pass. I have my opinions, but would be interested in yours.

I hope that lays out the order of what happened. I have skipped some parts, I am sure.

Someday when the smoke clears, it will be fun to lay out the entire behind the scenes details of how this has been coming down; The wolf nuts caving and fighting among each other; SFW/BGF going forward with Congressional releases misstating the position of NRA et al; and how the groups involved are managing their positions. Watching who placed bets where and who is going to lose those bets is probably the most intriguing.

Needless to say, barring some big change of events, the hunters of MT and ID are going to get paid on their bets. Read the posts over on MM and make your own determination as to the likelihood of SFW/BGF and the wolf nuts getting paid on their bets, both being similar bets against the Simpson-Tester language.

 

[Big Fin]

Fin or anyone else with the know,

Can you explain the 10j rule and why Idaho and Montana never used it? I'm trying to figure out why people bash ID F&G for the wolf problems we have here. Apparently if they used said rule, Idaho would be controlling the wolf numbers for a while now??

As I understand it the 10j only allows states to take action on wolves that have attacked livestock or humans. It does not allow management of wolves impacting wildlife numbers?

10j is a section of the Endangered Species Act where a state can request a special management season if they can prove the endangered species in question is causing undue impacts on the other species.

It is very hard and laborious to prove you meet the threshold. And, fraught with lawsuits. It is specific to a location of impact, and not for state-wide control measures.

But, ID just got one approved in December for a limited area. I think MT has submitted for such in the 'Root.

Not the easy way to go and a very ineffective way to manage.

I think Idaho's approval is the first 10j hunter ever approved since the ESA was passed in the early 1970's.

 

[tjones]

FWP sent in a 32 page application for the 10(j) for HD 250 here in the Bitterroot. It is with the service now and waiting approval to go out for public comment. Its been 6 months.

Last I heard Idaho's application was out for public comment and I think that has closed. They await final approval.

 

[nidahunter]

Thank you, Fin. For everything. That puts it all together and into perspective for us.

 

[shoots-straight]

Big Fin posted a new, all time classic, dealing a SFW/BGF dude a deadly literary blow:

Very impressive piece of logic and rationale you used to support your opinion there, NT. My six year-old niece provides more compelling support for her opinions about why she should give Johnny her PJB sammich while riding the school bus. With the overwhelming evidence you provided, I am sure we are all swayed by that drivel.

Loved the sammich wording. LMAO.

 

[warmer]

Thank you, Fin. For everything. That puts it all together and into perspective for us.

+1. Now I get it. Thanks, Fin.

 

[drahthaar]

Big Fin posted a new, all time classic, dealing a SFW/BGF dude a deadly literary blow:



Loved the sammich wording. LMAO.

No no no, the girl scout cookie metaphor was the best.

 

[elk_hunter]

It just seems like it doesn't matter how many times facts are thrown out over and over. Has anyone in "that" camp flipped yet? I haven't seen anyone spit out their Kool-Aid and realize the reality/truth in all this wolf debate. But, it's pretty funny watching those guys argue.

 

[----]

It just seems like it doesn't matter how many times facts are thrown out over and over. Has anyone in "that" camp flipped yet? I haven't seen anyone spit out their Kool-Aid and realize the reality/truth in all this wolf debate. But, it's pretty funny watching those guys argue.

The same thread even six months ago would have brought out droves of people defending SFW. I think the fact it`s only a few guys speaking out says a lot.

 

[Devil Diver Down]

Thanks for the rundown, Randy. I had already read some of the "discussion" at MM and other bits, including the presser from the NRA. Ouch.

The tact SFW/BGF is taking is that we accept nothing other than their bill, S.249. It is still a mystery to most people why they take this stance, a stance destined for failure, and tossing out all the progress we have made to get to this close point.

I will let you decided for yourself why they are pushing the solution that will never pass. I have my opinions, but would be interested in yours.

My opinion is that there is a lot of money in "fighting the good fight" for an extended period of time. Quick victories rarely allow any fund-raising entity to really gather a full head of steam. Something has to be left to fight to justify the continued feeding of the machine. Taking an all or nothing stance behind bills that stand a snowball's chance gives them a sound defeat and provides targets to demonize--neighboring states, "so-called sportsmens groups (who also compete for your dollar, coincidentally), wolves (somewhere down the list, it seems) and, everybody's favorite, congress. Of course, demons can only be fought off with "your generous donation".

I don't know anything special about SFW, but many organizations that start off on the right path, tumble into the weeds sooner than later. Money, power and all that, I guess.

With that said, I think there may be some merit to what the Wyoming lawyer posted:

"By supporting a weak piece of legislation, these groups have allowed several of the Congressional Representatives and Senators to play both sides of the aisle -– to argue that they support delisting when such claims suit their political aspirations, and to argue that they fought against delisting when such a position will garner them votes from the so-called “environmental” groups. In other words, this amounts to nothing more than obtaining only the slightest and short-term moral victory for a limited number of people, and at the same time ensuring a very troubling defeat for the citizens of Wyoming and for the States’ right to manage wildlife."

I agree that a victory (for all sides, really) with the Simpson/Tester/Baucus amendment will likely allow legislators to play both sides--their favorite activity--and solve little or nothing. Arizona is rife with weak legislation, hamstringing it to death. Halfway may be better than no way in the short run but it may tangle things up down the road and keep them from getting fully solved, if full resolution is even a remote possibility.

I don't agree that this amendment hurts Wyoming's supposed victory wrt Judge Johnson's ruling. If states (MT, ID and the others to some degree) can do their own thing, I don't see how it would preclude Wyoming from implementing their plan, if they've truly gathered one.

Whether the amendment turns out to be a triple (per Big Fin) or it sets all wolf states up for a double play (the WY lawyer) remains to be seen.

The problem, of course, is that this issue is 17 years old, so any progress--half way or a quarter of the way (whatever)--toward relief is long overdue and states can't afford to wait for the Grand Slam.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Amen DDD. Our herds can't wait any longer for relief. If we slug it out for another 10 years while more dissent and hatred brew, we'll lose the Madison herd, the Sun RIver herd and we'll have wolves all over the island ranges.

Let's get on base, and help the others bat it out of the park.

WHEN the Simpson/Tester language passes, there will be a chain reaction. Wyoming (my home state) is getting on board the train as it leaves the station. Later this year, USFWS will issue a delisting rule in the Great Lakes region that will withstand legal challenges.

The writing is on the wall, and as Randy has so eloquently said: Those serial litigants have figured out that they have pushed everyone too far on this issue.

Now if we can keep the MT Leg from screwing it up.