School funding

[Gellar]

The federal govt constitutionally is supposed to be on a very tight leash as far as funding schools. Supposed to be the states' bailiwick. I am surprised that any federal money ever was allowed for hunters safety or archery programs. It shouldn't have been. Never was when I grew up. The only fed money for our schools was Head Start and hot lunch and as I recall both programs, to make sure youth were nourished enough to not be brain damaged during formative years, encountered very stiff resistance from the far right (Democrats back in those days). I look on this as fixing existing inappropriate use of tax dollars. Better not be using any fed money for HS football or track programs either. I was a coach thirty years ago and our wrestling and basketball programs never saw a cent of federal money. We sure could have used it!

Not sure when you went to school but the pitman Robertson act was enacted in 1937 and is a federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition that is used to pay for hunters education among other things.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Not sure when you went to school but the pitman Robertson act was enacted in 1937 and is a federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition that is used to pay for hunters education among other things.

Yes, and I'm sure it helped pay for my Montana hunters ed class back in 1963. But the course was NOT part of the public school curriculum. It was private, and affiliated with NRA if I remember correctly. The course was allowed to use the gym in an old long abandoned, unheated, and possibly condemned former school gym. I'm quite sure the school district received no federal funds. When that building was torn down the classes were held in a church.

 

[BAKPAKR]

Yes, and I'm sure it helped pay for my Montana hunters ed class back in 1963. But the course was NOT part of the public school curriculum. It was private, and affiliated with NRA if I remember correctly. The course was allowed to use the gym in an old long abandoned, unheated, and possibly condemned former school gym. I'm quite sure the school district received no federal funds. When that building was torn down the classes were held in a church.

@OntarioHunter, perhaps your knowledge and expertise make it more appropriate for you to opine on the best ways to dispose of human waste.

It will be a big deal to West Virginia if federal funds are withheld from schools who offer hunter’s education or archery. Of course, we are just a little, backwards State…

New law puts hunter education in W.Va. middle schools - WV MetroNews

Law calls for classes to be offered to every middle school student during the spring semester and more classes can be added if interest is high.

wvmetronews.com

 

[KipCarson]

@OntarioHunter we pay attention and take notice of a potential major problem and that makes us suckers?! Good grief you’re the most myopic “expert” I’ve ever seen. With people like you around it’s no wonder Canada has slide into the mess it currently is. Yes, there is evidence federal money is used to fund those programs. As a coach of one of these NASP programs were required to turn in a time log of all our volunteer hours which translates into Pittman Robertson $$$. Yes, this could have major implications for the NASP program and hunter ed programs etc. Unfortunately every aspect of education these days seems to be tied up into federal money these days.
I’ll calm my outrage only if and when this does shake out to be another stupid Biden overreach. Until then I’ll speak up where needed just in case the loathsome Fox News just so happens to be right. If awards were given for most abrasive personality on hunt talk I believe you would be the unanimous champion.

 

[Nick87]

If awards were given for most abrasive personality on hunt talk I believe you would be the unanimous champion.

You cleaned that up rather nicely.

 

[Gellar]

Yes, and I'm sure it helped pay for my Montana hunters ed class back in 1963. But the course was NOT part of the public school curriculum. It was private, and affiliated with NRA if I remember correctly. The course was allowed to use the gym in an old long abandoned, unheated, and possibly condemned former school gym. I'm quite sure the school district received no federal funds. When that building was torn down the classes were held in a church.

When I was in middle school hunters Ed, nasp, boaters Ed and fish Iowa were all units we did in pe. Today our school still does Nasp and hunters education (I teach hunters Ed through my job at 2 school districts). All of the schools have a trap team, in fact our school just worked with the local gun range to completely redo the trap range. Going from one out of date throwing house to 3 state of the art trap houses to host huge trap events.

These programs not only are life long sports these kids can compete in for their adult lives. Many of the kids that excel at the trap team or Nasp, or hunters Ed aren’t the greatest of students otherwise, perhaps not having a good home life too. Giving them an opportunity to excel in something may just give them the boost of confidence they need, click the lightbulb on for them to help them make right choices and be good humans.

 

[OntarioHunter]

When I was in middle school hunters Ed, nasp, boaters Ed and fish Iowa were all units we did in pe. Today our school still does Nasp and hunters education (I teach hunters Ed through my job at 2 school districts). All of the schools have a trap team, in fact our school just worked with the local gun range to completely redo the trap range. Going from one out of date throwing house to 3 state of the art trap houses to host huge trap events.

These programs not only are life long sports these kids can compete in for their adult lives. Many of the kids that excel at the trap team or Nasp, or hunters Ed aren’t the greatest of students otherwise, perhaps not having a good home life too. Giving them an opportunity to excel in something may just give them the boost of confidence they need, click the lightbulb on for them to help them make right choices and be good humans.

Again, I won't argue the benefits. Hunting and fishing made me the success I am today. But the founding fathers made it very clear education is the states' right and responsibility. I'm fairly certain your programs were funded either by the state or, more likely, the local community, not with federal money. The antis would have stopped that a long time ago and very easily in court.

 

[OntarioHunter]

@OntarioHunter we pay attention and take notice of a potential major problem and that makes us suckers?! Good grief you’re the most myopic “expert” I’ve ever seen. With people like you around it’s no wonder Canada has slide into the mess it currently is. Yes, there is evidence federal money is used to fund those programs. As a coach of one of these NASP programs were required to turn in a time log of all our volunteer hours which translates into Pittman Robertson $$$. Yes, this could have major implications for the NASP program and hunter ed programs etc. Unfortunately every aspect of education these days seems to be tied up into federal money these days.
I’ll calm my outrage only if and when this does shake out to be another stupid Biden overreach. Until then I’ll speak up where needed just in case the loathsome Fox News just so happens to be right. If awards were given for most abrasive personality on hunt talk I believe you would be the unanimous champion.

You are required to log your volunteer hours but how does that necessarily translate into PR dollars? Volunteers don't get paid. Is the school receiving money for the program or is the program receiving the money? If the program is not associated with the school, I would think there should be no problem using PR dollars (though I'd have to read the act carefully - as I recall those funds were earmarked for conservation and hunters ed might be a stretch for that, though certainly doable in the right court).

I find it laughable how the far right media wants to wave around the Constitution for strict interpretation ... until that doesn't fit their agenda. No different than the far left I guess.

 

[OntarioHunter]

@OntarioHunter, perhaps your knowledge and expertise make it more appropriate for you to opine on the best ways to dispose of human waste.

It will be a big deal to West Virginia if federal funds are withheld from schools who offer hunter’s education or archery. Of course, we are just a little, backwards State…

New law puts hunter education in W.Va. middle schools - WV MetroNews

Law calls for classes to be offered to every middle school student during the spring semester and more classes can be added if interest is high.

wvmetronews.com

Again, don't you know that schools are funded almost entirely by local mill levies? Your state made hunters education mandatory but that doesn't mean the federal govt was paying for it. What that law did was force the local West Virginia communities to pay for it, just the same if sex ed or drivers ed curriculums were mandated.

 

[Gellar]

Again, I won't argue the benefits. Hunting and fishing made me the success I am today. But the founding fathers made it very clear education is the states' right and responsibility. I'm fairly certain your programs were funded either by the state or, more likely, the local community, not with federal money. The antis would have stopped that a long time ago and very easily in court.

Like @KipCarson said, volunteers track their hours, they turn them into the state hunters safety coordinator, who turns them into the USFWS. I also get materials from the state including books, dvds, firearms, ammunition, etc. The USFWS has a formula that they use to figure out how much funds each state gets. I am considered a volunteer when I teach hunters safety in the eyes of the state, but my employer chooses to pay me for my time. You are correct that there is also local money that goes into the programs as well, but this is usually in the form of donations such as space for the class, cases of water, food, and prizes. For one of my classes the local gun shop donates a firearm to raffle off to the students after the class.

It is very complicated, so to make it easier, does the local hunters safety coordinator or school receive federal money for the programs directly? No, but indirectly, yes.

I have school administrators, parents, kids, etc who thank me and ask me every year if we are going to do hunters safety again in the schools. I’ve never had one parent question why it is taught in the school. I have 2 more schools that would let me teach hunters Ed as part of their curriculum in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, teaching hunters Ed in the school is a big time commitment, much more so than a regular hunters Ed class.

 

[MTGunner]

Before we moved to NW Montana, in 2003, I taught Basic Hunters Education for 17 years for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. AKA the communist country/state of taxatusetts. We were volunteers, not paid. I taught and earned my way to becoming a master hunter education instructor. I taught Waterfowl Identification as an advanced course for same. I volunteered to help the Bow Hunter Ed and other programs under the guise of Hunter Ed. We were never paid for our long hours as I/we believed in the program. It WAS funded by the Pittman Robertson Act as we were informed time and times again. This made it possible to take under our wings many youngsters, their parents and some who were merely curious regarding hunting and conservation. I am proud of the untold hours I and our instructor team spent imparting some knowledge under the Hunter Education System. Again, funded by the Pittman Robertson Act. There were and are state employees that are paid for their time. BUT, instructors are volunteers and proud to do so. Bidens attempt to cut funding for Hunter Education is nothing more than a socialist agenda to disarm, dumb down our future Hunter citizen. If implemented it should be taken to the SCOTUS if necessary. Biden does not have the authority to fund or cut spending regarding any program. It IS the responsibility of Congress to do so. My .02 cents. MTG

 

[bayoublaster7527]

This is really simple, put the partisan outrage aside. If you believe federal funding should be used for hunter’s education, archery, etc then write your congressional representative and/or senator and let them know. Certain powers are delegated to the executive branch and others are delegated to the legislative branch. That is how the process is intended to work.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Okay. Some clarification. Pitman-Robertson funding is not at issue. What the Dept of Education is attempting to do is blackmail schools with hunters ed programs into dropping those programs or risk losing funding under the 1965 Primary and Secondary Education Act. From what I'm reading none of the funds from that act should ever have been used for hunters ed ... and I'm fairly certain none ever were. The Act was always contentious and heavily scrutinized. Ronnie Reagan worked very hard to make it accountable ... or unusable, depending on your perspective. The Act was established to ensure equitable education opportunities for poor and/or minority children. Hunters ed obviously has no role in that one way or the other, but shutting down federal equal opportunity funding simply because a school has hunters ed curriculum certainly could have a profound impact on the future of ALL the children in those schools, whether they shoot guns or not. Clearly, the Secty of Education is ignoring the legislative intent of the 1965 Act. And clearly this will be easily quashed the first time it goes to court. At worst, this is a laughable waste of government time ... and credibility. Very stupid. But not to worry. I don't see this "threat" going anywhere. A paper tiger.

 

[BAKPAKR]

Again, don't you know that schools are funded almost entirely by local mill levies? Your state made hunters education mandatory but that doesn't mean the federal govt was paying for it. What that law did was force the local West Virginia communities to pay for it, just the same if sex ed or drivers ed curriculums were mandated.

I realize that federal funding only makes up a small percentage of the total monies spent on education. But THERE IS federal funding provided for our schools. The number I have seen mentioned is an average of 7% of the total funding. Although that percentage is not large, I am not blind to the fact that many school districts are experiencing financial crisis. So, if the mere fact that a school district offers hunter’s education or archery would make the school, not the individual programs, ineligible for federal funding, it is still a very big deal. If, under that scenario, the code cannot reasonably be interpreted to still allow the funding, it would be appropriate, as @bayoublaster7527 suggested, to contact your congressional representative and senator to ask for legislative action.

Again, I cannot tell from the original article if the administration intends to withhold all federal education dollars from the schools who have the programs or if it just plans on prohibiting the use of federal monies for the specific programs.

On a side note, I wonder if schools that have javelin throw as a track event could lose funding? It is a spear…

 

[ccc23454]

On a side note, I wonder if schools that have javelin throw as a track event could lose funding? It is a spear…

What home cooking classes, been a bunch of knife attacks lately.
What about drivers ed or auto repair classes, cars kill more people than just about anything.
Maybe need to shut down political science, its not real science and shouldnt be a career path!

 

[BuzzH]

What home cooking classes, been a bunch of knife attacks lately.
What about drivers ed or auto repair classes, cars kill more people than just about anything.
Maybe need to shut down political science, its not real science and shouldnt be a career path!

Or those deadly books that have been banned, with gusto and unfettered enthusiasm, lately.

Good thing the children are now safe from that threat.

 

[huntingman121]

The Bipartisan Safer Communities Act was suppose to keep schools safe and got strong bipartisan support. It was badly written so now hunters ed and archery classes will suffer. It seems pretty easy to go amend the bill through congress.

My state Montana only gets about 11-12 percent of its education funding from the feds. Most all of it goes to special education and IDEA individuals with disabilities act. Congress votes every year where the federal education money goes, not the president. We taught archery in my middle school through PE class. We got to the bows through a grant.

Let me be clear, I am not a Biden fan but where is this his fault? I laughed how people say the schools want to dummy down the students, but they believe everything they hear on Fox News. Fox left out a lot critical details. Why don’t these people who aren’t dummy downed look at issues critically and study them before forming an opinion. Oh I know, because that is what they want to believe, so who needs real facts. That is what’s wrong with our country and it goes for both the left and right.

 

[OntarioHunter]

@OntarioHunter, perhaps your knowledge and expertise make it more appropriate for you to opine on the best ways to dispose of human waste.

It will be a big deal to West Virginia if federal funds are withheld from schools who offer hunter’s education or archery. Of course, we are just a little, backwards State…

New law puts hunter education in W.Va. middle schools - WV MetroNews

Law calls for classes to be offered to every middle school student during the spring semester and more classes can be added if interest is high.

wvmetronews.com

I think the legislature of WV missed the boat worse than the Secty of Education. What sense is there in mandating hunters safety for all middle school students? We already have a crisis in hunting access opportunities. How does mandating more consumers for less and less resources make any sense ... or do any good for either hunters or the resource? Oh, but it gets more guns in more hands and therefore theoretically more support against gun legislation. Isn't that what this is all about? Using govt to push personal (or commercial) agendas, however absurd or counterproductive or potentially destructive those methods or objectives may be. Put on the blinders and hook up the bulldozer blade.

WV would have given its children much more potential for success if it had instead mandated real estate management/development curriculum in its schools. Resources be damned ... but who knows, maybe one of those kids could grow up to be president. It's been known to happen.

 

[BAKPAKR]

I think the legislature of WV missed the boat worse than the Secty of Education. What sense is there in mandating hunters safety for all middle school students?

If you are suggesting that the West Virginia legislation mandates that all middle school students take hunter’s ed, it does not.

From the article: “It’s voluntary. If a child is not interested in it they don’t have to take it, but we can get a class scheduled if there’s interest”.

To fact check the quote from the article, I looked up the code (18-2-8A(c)(2)). It specifically says, “The hunter safety orientation program is voluntary to students.”

 

[SAJ-99]

1) I can't find much info on this at all other than the original story. I can't tell if this is all PR money or general Ed funds or both. Either way, it appears to be based on some technicality in BSCA and is stupid politically because there isn't much to be gained by the move other than piss some people off and give Fox a narrative to exploit. That doesn't seem like Biden's style and given the bipartisan support of the bill, a quick change to wording should be easy if Congress wasn't on one of its dozen breaks each year.
2) PR funds pay for hunter ed, but I don't think the organizations are supposed to profit handsomely from it. Maybe they get a small amount over the cost of production, but it certainly isn't a windfall. It shouldn't matter much to the schools financially. Maybe that is why I don't see much news on it?
3) I am learning a lot about how different states do things. There was a bill last year in WV that created hunter ed options in schools. Is there some sort of political "payback" angle I am missing? Not sure, but I would think that any school would need an insurance rider to even provide transportation to a location where a bunch of kids in the course will be given access to firearms. Wondering how they handle that.