SB 388 Revising upland bird regs for Non Residents

[SwaggyD]

Or the guys at the bar that talk about feeding all the birds to their dogs to stay under possession. It’s kind of disgusting, honestly.

This isn’t kind of disgusting, it needs to stop.

 

[TheJason]

Section 2 and 4 seem to contradict each other.

How so?

Section 2 allows you to split the 14 days into two non-consecutive 7 day periods. Section 4 allows you to purchase two B1 licenses in the same license year.

 

[huntin24/7]

This is a good bill. As someone who’s spent a lot of time hunting and just being around the good bird hunting bma’s and public land of NE MT over the last 15 years, the pressure increase on these properties for upland game the last 2 years has been unreal. Public land that use to be decent hunting all season is void of birds most of the season from getting walked 3-5 times a day. I’m by no means against people coming out here and enjoying this resource, but it’s just time for some limitations.

 

[BrentD]

After hearing stories from wardens the last few years like the guy picked up with 70 sharptails in his trailer, and a couple other guys with 200 pheasants getting pinched, it really does start to sway my feelings towards some limits on hunting days. For years the gal at one local cafe told us about the guys that came and left bags of birds in her walk-in so they could keep hunting. Or the guys at the bar that talk about feeding all the birds to their dogs to stay under possession. It’s kind of disgusting, honestly. If this puts a stop to, or at least reduces that kind of behavior, I can’t say I hate it.

I have a hard time believing the trucks you see out almost every day for two months straight are staying under possession.

But the 70 sharpies and 200 pheasant guys are already illegal, no?
game give aways have been going on for a long time. Many are promoted by state DNR/G&Fs - "feed the hungry", food banks, etc.. Why not make game give aways illegal.

I suspect this type of thing is pretty minor with respect to bird hunters. At least upland hunters.

 

[300stw]

But the 70 sharpies and 200 pheasant guys are already illegal, no?
game give aways have been going on for a long time. Many are promoted by state DNR/G&Fs - "feed the hungry", food banks, etc.. Why not make game give aways illegal.

I suspect this type of thing is pretty minor with respect to bird hunters. At least upland hunters.

there illegal because they been pounding everything for a month or more, with multiple dog strings
any idea how many trainers show up with hundreds of dogs in june, july. train till sept. and kill birds for 2 months solid

i watch numerous guys showing up in that time frame yearly
give em 14 days then let them go to another state

enforcement is another can of worms,,,,we dont need to.open in this thread

 

[300stw]

and then the next thread needs to be about waterfowlers and limiting there days also
ne montana , this last year was an all time cluster f***

 

[BrentD]

there illegal because they been pounding everything for a month or more, with multiple dog strings
any idea how many trainers show up with hundreds of dogs in june, july. train till sept. and kill birds for 2 months solid

i watch numerous guys showing up in that time frame yearly
give em 14 days then let them go to another state

enforcement is another can of worms,,,,we dont need to.open in this thread

But it sounds like enforcement is, indeed, the issue. And, it sounds a lot like gun control. Make a lot of new laws that inhibit lawful people while people that broke the old gun laws also break the new ones. The only people really affected are the legal average joes and janes.

Guys that are there for 5 months must be professionals of some sort. They certainly are not the odd retired bumpkin from Iowa with his elderly retriever. Maybe you could rethink your attack on them.

Are these new 14d licenses going to be only 1/8 as much as the previous NR license that was good for 4 months? Probably not.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Somebody shared this on the Facebook. How big of a goofball is Rhonda Knudsen?


View attachment 266968
I feel bad for non-resident hunters. They seem to be taking a beating across the west. I have close friends who are non-resident hunters. All that said, when it comes down to it, non-residents should lose opportunity before residents do.

We have much bigger fish to fry than what this bill will solely alleviate, but it’s a step in the right direction from what I have seen in the field and the trajectory of nonresident hunting pressure across Montana over the last couple decades.

Seems like the last thing any western state wants to do is admit that in 2023 they have in some cases double the resident population they did in 2006.

Those residents who get 70+% of the tags for whatever critter are the issue.

You can’t solve the over crowding by just hosing non-residents, these issues require everyone to give up some ground.

Personally seems like a fair law, I don’t need to hunt the opener and 14 days is more time then I would ever have to roam around.

 

[406dn]

Regarding the dog trainers with big strings of dogs, who come in July to train dogs.

I am an amateur dog trainer/horseback field trialer. I'd guess you could split the pro trainers into two groups. Those who train dogs to compete in field trials and those who train dogs for hunting plantations in the SE part of the country.

The first group is unlikely to stay much past the first of September as the field trial scene starts moving away from the northern plains about then. I doubt they kill very many birds, at all.

The second group, I do not know nearly as much about. But they do not have the same draw to leave as August ends and September begins. I could certainly see where they might stay, to hunt the dogs. This might be where the rub is.

I train my dogs on wild birds in the summer beginning in the latter part of July. Young sharptails then are half grown, and fly a hundred yards or so after they are flushed. I don't allow a dog to interact with any individual bird more than once. By mid August, young sharptails can fly just as well as the adults. My field trialling normally concludes after mid September. Then I begin hunting birds. I would say that I kill far fewer birds anymore, compared to before I began field trialling.

 

[RobertD]

The second group, I do not know nearly as much about. But they do not have the same draw to leave as August ends and September begins. I could certainly see where they might stay, to hunt the dogs. This might be where the rub is.

I know about them, as I live in one of the main areas they come up from. They like having a place to work dogs without the oppressive late summer heat and humidity. Plus there's more public to spread out on (theorerically). I'm sure plenty stay for four, six, eight weeks working dogs before coming back down as upland season begins down here.

Reverse is true too, lots of MN tags with dog trailers and boxes down here in late winter.

 

[Hunting Wife]

But the 70 sharpies and 200 pheasant guys are already illegal, no?
game give aways have been going on for a long time. Many are promoted by state DNR/G&Fs - "feed the hungry", food banks, etc.. Why not make game give aways illegal.

I suspect this type of thing is pretty minor with respect to bird hunters. At least upland hunters.

I feel like this used to be a minor thing but is becoming increasingly common or egregious. You never used to see another upland hunter in September, at all, let alone people grossly over bagging on sharptails. But I fully accept that my gut reaction is probably an overreaction, or at least misdirected. I guess for me personally, that level of disregard for the resource makes me feel like perhaps there is too much opportunity being provided.

When I hunt North Dakota, I am subject to regs very similar to those in this bill, and I feel like I have plenty of opportunity, more than I can really take advantage of. I could still hunt for a full month if I so choose. That sure seems like a lot while I’m out there, and doesn’t include any of the hunting I do in other states.

Given some of the issues we have with grassland conversion and loss, increasing pressure, etc I think we in general need to get comfortable with the idea that we have a finite resource, and opportunity cannot, and should not, be unlimited.

However, this in no way diminishes how badly I want to see you out here with a vintage double and a bag of sharpies.

Seems like the last thing any western state wants to do is admit that in 2023 they have in some cases double the resident population they did in 2006.

Those residents who get 70+% of the tags for whatever critter are the issue.

I would say absolutely with regards to big game. But birds in my experience draw a much different crowd, at least in this part of the world, and it is predominantly non-resident in the upland hot spots of Montana and North Dakota. But having worked now in adjacent areas in both states, the pressure, while still high at times, seems better-managed or distributed temporally in North Dakota with the limited licenses.

 

[406dn]

I know about them, as I live in one of the main areas they come up from. They like having a place to work dogs without the oppressive late summer heat and humidity. Plus there's more public to spread out on (theorerically). I'm sure plenty stay for four, six, eight weeks working dogs before coming back down as upland season begins down here.

Reverse is true too, lots of MN tags with dog trailers and boxes down here in late winter.

i've been a horseback field trialer for 20+ years. During that time I've met and made friends with many bird dog people from the SE part of the country.

They come north for the reasons you state, and the opportunity to work dogs on young sharptails. That has been occurring for over hundred years. Many of them historically trained their dogs in Canada. Crossing the border to train dogs was interrupted during covid. I think that is some part of the reason there has been an increased presence in Montana.

I also think that for quite a while Montana has been naive concerning non resident bird hunters, when compared to the Dakotas. Both North and South Dakota have long tried to find ways to balance the interests of resident hunters and non resident hunters. This bill is an indication that Montana will try find a similar balance.

 

[300stw]

1 agree with hunting wife, i hunt surrounding states, have a pile of dogs, shoot as many birds as i can eat, 14 days in any state is plenty, i see a quail teip in az and nm this year, 10 days in ea state more then enough

i spend 200 days in the field in 3,4 montana counties just for work. add in my hunting days,
and i dont believe theres to many more people then me who are thru all 4 ne counties, back roads, 2 tracks ect, to actually see and watch and interact with hunters field trialers and private guys that i handle many hundreds of easements with,,,,

so i dont feel im just a butt hurt local with a lab, complaing i cant find birds,,,,
i dont know if i could count all the sharptail and hun coveys i have marked on my onx,
i do feel strongly, that when bird numbers are not at a high level, the non resident guys are infact addidtive mortality on bird populations,,
very few local guys i know or see shoot many limits of sharpies or huns, or phes, just not that many diehard guys that are gonna kill birds no matter what

if the day comes residents are controlled somehow, so many tags per season, pick 2 weeks for ea speciees, what ever it may be,
its better then no season,
and if we protect the resource, great,
i may not like it, but we can all go to nd walleye fishing,,

 

[BirdManMike]

Ethics isn’t something that can be regulated, unfortunately.

Some of the trialers/trainers aren’t shooting at every pointed bird, or even most, but some are. Some of the NR staying for weeks on end aren’t shooting every bird, or even most, but some are.

I’ve seen firsthand, for instance, some fellow from Georgia or Louisiana or some other dog-forsaken place run the same handful of coveys on the same BMAs for weeks on end. Rat hunting individuals after the covey(s) were flushed and scattered, well-handled by the dog or not, over and over, shooting at every bird that gets up in range. When asked why, the answer was, ‘I only get a few weeks a year to hunt birds’.

It’s not all NR, of course, I see the same behavior from MT plates. I’ll never understand the behavior, lengths, or attitudes needed for it - just to shoot a hun or two, barely a meal.

If this change results in just one additional, accessible field still holding birds at the end of September, it’ll be a positive.

It’s (probably?) been said here before, but I’ll say it again: today is the best things will ever be, tomorrow is going to be worse. We are all going to have to accept limitations going forward.

 

[TheTone]

Somebody shared this on the Facebook. How big of a goofball is Rhonda Knudsen?


View attachment 266968
I feel bad for non-resident hunters. They seem to be taking a beating across the west. I have close friends who are non-resident hunters. All that said, when it comes down to it, non-residents should lose opportunity before residents do.

We have much bigger fish to fry than what this bill will solely alleviate, but it’s a step in the right direction from what I have seen in the field and the trajectory of nonresident hunting pressure across Montana over the last couple decades.

I’ve seen similar thoughts with regards to big game hunting; start of the season everyone hates NR, then it becomes people from out of county and by the end of the season it’s people from the wrong town in the county

 

[rogerthat]

Tighten up your boots guys! The birds are out there. O’er the next ridge!

 

[Knight.54]

My elderly lab has never set foot in Montana.
I hunt with residents and their dogs. We obey limits, as a rule.
I don’t have a dog trailer nor am I an amateur nor professional dog trainer or field trialer…
This, for me is about days afield not numbers of birds….opportunity and privilege to participate in an activity.
Time afield.

I am confused about one thing on the attachment provided. Perhaps someone could help me understand….
The attached document lists M. Marler under the heading of “introduced by”…isn’t she a representative and not a senator?

I reached out to her and she said she had not seen it and knew nothing about it? My understanding is it was read on the senate side and had not reached the house.
I’m just curious about this.

 

[Schism]

I agree that this bill is probably needed and will help curb some of the NR pressure MT is seeing on upland birds. However, I think the issue @Hunting Wife described above with 70 sharpies and 200 roosters is an enforcement issue. By limiting NR to 14 days there will be some that feel that since their time is restricted they need to shoot as many birds as possible because "F MT and their new law." We see and hear those sentiments in ND.

One of the stark differences I see between ND and MT is the presence of Game Wardens. I have been checked many times while in the field in ND but can count on two hands the number of times I've been checked in 40 years in MT. While presence of law enforcement is a separate issue, I think it is more critical.

 

[huntnpack]

The retired guys with RV and a dog or two don’t bother me too much. The dog trainers with dog trailer spending the entire season training certainly do.

Would only targeting commercial training operations be a better option then?

Or would the increased burden of proof make something like that unenforceable?

 

[BrentD]

I know about them, as I live in one of the main areas they come up from. They like having a place to work dogs without the oppressive late summer heat and humidity. Plus there's more public to spread out on (theorerically). I'm sure plenty stay for four, six, eight weeks working dogs before coming back down as upland season begins down here.

Reverse is true too, lots of MN tags with dog trailers and boxes down here in late winter.

There seems to be as much or more dislike of the bird dog training that there is the hunting. Perhaps getting at that directly without persecuting the bird hunting gypsies is a better way to go.

For instance, Iowa (I hate to bring up Iowa here, but it works), bans dogs in WMAs from 15 March til 15 July, except in designated areas. That protects birds from harassment on and off the nest. Simple rule, easily enforced. Solves that problem without much impingement on the gypsies. You could also require permit$$$ of professional (or poor doddering amateurs) dog trainers (in and out of $$$tate).

The excessive kill numbers are either bad possession limits or bad enforcement. Changing to a 14-day season will not fix the former. But fixing the latter will fix the former. Pretty easily. Or do you have 3-digit possession limits?

There was a comment about the guy that feeds his dog birds. That is probably so rare as to be absolutely trivial, but why not? I feed my dog crazy meals every day. They are much more complicated and expensive than what I feed myself. In addition, during bird season, he gets at least a hind quarter of chicken handed to him every day. I won't hand him a half a pheasant instead, but realistically, it seems pretty logical. My dog eats everything I do and much more. Much, much more.