SB 380 Reconsideration of Bill!

[The Hedgehog]

Howler- there's a number of mule deer buck permit areas in MT and all have the rule that you cannot take a mule deer buck elsewhere in MT if you have drawn a limited permit. It's a great rule, and keeps people who really don't care to have the permit from applying. It does not force anybody to shoot a young deer - no regulation is going to prevent that.

 

[dexnrex]

If the requirement that you can only kill a mule deer buck in a special permit area if you hold the permit is good for mule deer, why not for elk. If someone draws a special permit for elk, either archery or rifle they should only be able to kill an elk in that special permit area/season. I have talked to guys that have drawn breaks archery elk permits and not hunted the permit, but hunt a general area in the general season. For the reason Greenhorn pointed out elk permits in Montana should have the same rule attached to them. Special permits should go to people who appreciate them and will take advantage of the special circumstances associted with the permit. Sorry to get off topic, but this topic deserves some discussion as well.
To get back on topic I was at the table with Eric and Howler fighting for 652 and another area that FWP did manage to shoot down rather underhandedly. I'm not sure why they were so against these areas, but they were strongly opposed.

 

[Eric Albus]

greenhorn...in theory you are right, with the permit and shooting a buck in that area only..IN THEORY...however, reality is as howler stated...makes people shoot a buck they'd otherwise let go and grow.....

dex, agreed, the elk should have the same restrictions...

mtmiller...throw the B.S. flag all you want...you will find that I have no time for dispensing BS...if you want to call me a liar just come out and say it.

and thanks to howler and dex for remembering the "good old days"...VCSC, we certainly fought in the best interest of the resource...

 

[The Hedgehog]

Eric- I disagree. There isn't a regulation or restriction out there that's going to keep somebody from (or cause somebody to) shoot a young deer. Not even dropping a few thousand to hunt one of yours or Rod's leases is going to do that.

 

[mtmiller]

greenhorn...in theory you are right, with the permit and shooting a buck in that area only..IN THEORY...however, reality is as howler stated...makes people shoot a buck they'd otherwise let go and grow.....

dex, agreed, the elk should have the same restrictions...

mtmiller...throw the B.S. flag all you want...you will find that I have no time for dispensing BS...if you want to call me a liar just come out and say it.

Any guess on the average age of 652 permit bucks last year? It was 5.5.

I also agree on the elk permit restriction.

Eric, I guess if you were in the room when FWP stated this to the public I will have to believe you and pickup my replay flag. I am very surprised they would state in a public setting they were hoping it would fail. Do you think it was a failure?

 

[howler]

I see the 652 area as a good success, but the FWP, at least at one time did not like the 652 type area's and they did not go to any extra effort to help them succeed, As I said b4 I like the idea of having a special mule deer buck area's scattered around the state. to manage for older age class deer for all hunting districts is really going to limit a lot of deer hunters thru out the state and that is not going to be good. I know the average age of the bucks taken from that area is older and that is good, I haven't kept up with the area for a few years so an average of 5.5 years sounds good and realistic. It sounds to me the "having to shoot your deer in the area don't have a real affect on the area. I do know they have been reducing the number of permits for a long time, they did start out with 200 permits, I think if they maintain a strategy that allows for the shooting of young deer to maintain an older age harvest the permits will be lowered to maintain that low age, maybe,, maybe not. I really like the idea for elk lets all write our commissioners and tell them we like it...

 

[Eric Albus]

it was only to a few of us that it was stated out loud...kind of a rub it in our nose comment.. I do not know if they keep track of the age of the deer anymore, would about bet they don't. 652 was a great success the first 5-6 years. Then the Dept. upped the permits and quality went down...poaching has also been a problem there...I would not call it a failure, but I do not put in for the permit....I think it is a great area to have a quality experience in, w/ an outside chance at taking a mature buck...what is your take on the area?

 

[BuzzH]

Most any deer area in Montana gives you "an outside chance at taking a mature buck" and most dont require you to draw an over-rated tag.

The thing that isnt being considered with the "lets make every state a limited draw for everything" threads, much like this one, is that the tradition of hunting isnt even a consideration.

A vast majority of the people I grew up hunting with couldnt have cared less about trophy quality. They were hunting for the right reasons....tradition, meat, mentoring the next generation, and to get out in the woods.

This bullchit trophy stuff wears me out. The "need" for a bunch of middle aged fat guys to pretend they care about the resource, when the reality is they care ONLY about themselves, their business opportunities, and a B&C score also wears me out.

There are lots of mature animals in MT...but that requires more effort than filling out an application and getting lucky in a draw. Most arent interested in that approach to finding a mature animals, they'd rather ham-string the hard working, dedicated hunters by turning the state into a draw-only scenerio so they can take the lazy, easy way out.

Pathetic...it really is.

 

[mtlion]

....don't get me wrong, I love hunting the rut, my best "breaks bucks"(both 190+) were taken during the rut....it's legal, but is it really fair?

Let's see, the hypocrisy part comes from the do as I say not as I do message of your post.

The greed part comes from the do as I say not as I do message of your post.

You going to be passing any 190 deer just because they're rutting next season? It would be legal but not fair to kill one then. How about no clients during the rut?

Where I'm from we have a saying, put up or shut up.

 

[The Hedgehog]

What Buzz said. We will never see MOGA support anything less that 5 weeks of rifle rut mule deer season in MT. Too many guys happy to shell out cash to shoot a tame deer.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

+1 to what BuzzH posted!!!

 

[shoots-straight]

Eric,

To me it looks like your not willing to sacrifice a thing (for the good of the herd).

You and shooter are asking for 2 weeks added to the beginning of season, so in essence you'll be outfitting a 7 week long rifle season rather than a 5.

Greedy is what this is looking like.

In HD 270 the goal wasn't a trophy area. The goal was to increase mule deer bucks because the ration's were around 3 or 4 per 100 does before going to limited entry. Our herds needed it. Once the trophy quality was seen, few wanted to go back to any type of general season.

We never got support from one outfitter in the county to go limited entry.

We do that now and we (outfitters and landowners) catch all sorts of hell for it! I can see what you mean and I'm sure that it happens because a lot of hunters can't keep their fingers off of the trigger due to................their ego needing fed! Believe me, I am not throwing anyone on this site under the bus, but we all know it happens, and honestly the way that the system is set up now, that is their God given right. I wish that they all had he same attitude as MTGunner.

Shooter, I never said anything about "LOCKING OUT" anyone from hunting. I just said we need to give those deer more security by not allowing easy types of access. You and I mean different things when we say certain words.

 

[Big Shooter]

You and shooter are asking for 2 weeks added to the beginning of season, so in essence you'll be outfitting a 7 week long rifle season rather than a 5.

Apparently we don't understand each other if that is how you understood me. I said nothing about a 7 week season............not one damn thing! What I said was open it two weeks earlier....THEN SHUT IT DOWN TWO WEEKS EARLIER. Same five week season....JUST A DIFFERENT TIME FRAME. Why in the hell would we want a season that long? Jeez........give a buddy a little credit!

 

[shoots-straight]

Apparently we don't understand each other if that is how you understood me. I said nothing about a 7 week season............not one damn thing! What I said was open it two weeks earlier....THEN SHUT IT DOWN TWO WEEKS EARLIER. Same five week season....JUST A DIFFERENT TIME FRAME. Why in the hell would we want a season that long? Jeez........give a buddy a little credit!

So what about the whitetail, and elk season?

7 weeks of rifle is what your asking for. Your going for a staggered season that affords outfitters more time guiding clients.

Tell me that doesn't look bad? It's all for the resource huh? LOL!

You really want to do something for the resource then curb the length of season. Just take 2 weeks of the end. Now you might save a few.

As Mtlion said, put up or shut up!

 

[MTGunner]

Have ya' ever?

Have you ever passed on a big buck due to the fact that you, and he, were so far from camp, your truck or any help, for that matter, that you just decide to take a mental picture? Have you taken that first young tender wt doe that was so easy and close? Have you actually decided to not answer a question asked by someone you deem unfit or perhaps you think they should do their own research? I my advancing yrs. I have done these things an do not regret them. Hunting the rut has historically been what most think to be the opportune time to take that trophy buck, bull or stag. It has been written about so much that most articles are nothing more than plagiarism. Yet, the major hunting periodicals persist and continue to beat this dead horse. MGOA and do it yourself hunters will not solve this issue. You have to please the person in the mirror. If that means you have to have the biggest, largest, oldest whatever...then that is what you do. If not, perhaps just getting the chance to participate just might suffice. I/we are not going to put MGOA out of business. They have a right to be in business. Do all have the right to hunt? You betcha'! Once again, more licenses and added weeks to the big game season will only enhance revenue. Wildlife will suffer, sportsmanship, such as it is these days, will suffer and the hunting community will continue at odds over things we should be united in. See in the back country. Maybe you will help an old hunter drag big one back? BTW, if you come upon me and I am napping, please don't awaken me. If I am dead, please tell my wife I had a smile on my face. I was hunting! MTG

 

[Big Shooter]

So what about the whitetail, and elk season?!

For Christ's sake........I meant the entire big game season......not just the mule deer. WE CAN'T HAVE A SEVEN WEEK SEASON!

 

[BuzzH]

Oh, great idea, lets push the elk season back 2 weeks...right into the tail end of the rut.

Should be a real good move, all in the best interest of the "resource"...

Good grief, the dumb ideas have been officially trumped by even dumber ideas.

 

[shoots-straight]

Shooter,

Your not going to get any traction in moving the entire 5 weeks staged two weeks earlier.

Montanans have spoke loud and clear, and they want their hunting to include the Thanksgiving holidays.

Next!

 

[Big Shooter]

Soooo................hunting the tail end of the elk rut is way more detrimental to the "resource" than hunting the peek of the rut for mule deer, which are probably more accessible than the elk are?

By allowing the general deer season to extend through the Thanksgiving holiday......that is good for the "resource"?

 

[BuzzH]

The best week for big mule deer is not thanksgiving weekend...never has been, and never will be.

Its also not the best week for big whitetails either.

If you want to cut 2 weeks out to help mule deer...Nov 5-20 would save wayyyy more deer...and thats a fact.

You're dumb idea to push deer season back 2 weeks wouldnt do jack chit to save mule deer...another fact. You'd be hunting them up to Nov. 10-15 depending on the year, when they really are the most vulnerable.