Road blocks in New Mexico

[AggieOutlaw]

Red herring.

It isn’t. Perhaps reductio.

You’re argument is that the cost of a violation of liberty is socially acceptable given some baseline benefit of reducing crime.

Editing to add clarity below.

You’re suggesting that a sweeping violation of the rights of the general public should be acceptable if it is effective in a few edge cases.

I’m curious what legal challenges these drag nets have faced, especially in cases of minor and ridiculous violations (e.g. not leaving the ears on an obviously mature antelope buck).

 

[AggieOutlaw]

It is. Don’t know why folks think it’s not

Hunting is probable cause for poaching? Is this your position?

 

[JLS]

Hunting is probable cause for poaching? Is this your position?

This doesn’t even make sense.

You’re argument is that the cost of a violation of liberty is socially acceptable given some baseline benefit of reducing crime.

No, I merely stated they can be very effective at times. Stop putting words in my mouth.

You’re suggesting that a sweeping violation of the rights of the general public should be acceptable if it is effective in a few edge cases.

I never said nor suggested this. See above.

Reasonable cause is not a violation of civil rights at all. Road blocks imply zero reasonable cause. If I have antlers in the back, by all means ask for my tag and license. If I’m in camo, not so much.

You’re confusing terminology, can you restate your question ?

There is plenty of case law that clarifies the ability of wildlife enforcement to stop and check people who are hunting or fishing. They only need reasonable suspicion you were engaged in the activity to check you

The legality of check stations varies by state. Here is some light reading for you on search and seizure by Missouri COs.

https://www.slu.edu/law/law-journal/pdfs/issues-archive/v62-no3/travis_mclain_comment.pdf

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

Maybe these guys are lookin Columbian bam bam? Possibly Walter White?

 

[AggieOutlaw]

It is. Don’t know why folks think it’s not

This doesn’t even make sense.



No, I merely stated they can be very effective at times. Stop putting words in my mouth.



I never said nor suggested this. See above.



You’re confusing terminology, can you restate your question ?

There is plenty of case law that clarifies the ability of wildlife enforcement to stop and check people who are hunting or fishing. They only need reasonable suspicion you were engaged in the activity to check you

The legality of check stations varies by state. Here is some light reading for you on search and seizure by Missouri COs.

https://www.slu.edu/law/law-journal/pdfs/issues-archive/v62-no3/travis_mclain_comment.pdf

Middleagedbalding said:
Edit: reasonable suspicion and/or probable cause should be the standard for searching some one. Perhaps knowing someone is/was hunting is enough but it still makes me bristle.

It is. Don’t know why folks think it’s not


^^^This is your quote.

I’m asking if you think the act of hunting is reasonable suspicion of a crime (poaching) to justify a search of ones property...you seem to state that “it is” above. And you seem to double down by suggesting again that merely being or appearing to be in the act of hunting is probably cause.

I don’t disagree that if you reasonably appear to be hunting or fishing that a CO should be able to check my license.

I do disagree that this gives them probable cause to search my property for evidence of a violation.

What ever happened to fair chase?

 

[AggieOutlaw]

.
You’re confusing terminology, can you restate your question ?

Probable cause is grounds for a search. Reasonable suspicion is grounds for pulling me over. Both are subjective but do not violate my rights. A G&F road block gives the officer neither.

Did I ask a question?

 

[AggieOutlaw]

https://www.slu.edu/law/law-journal/pdfs/issues-archive/v62-no3/travis_mclain_comment.pdf

I read most of this. I find it preposterous that hunters have granted implied consent in the absence of probable cause as the author suggests. Implied consent to BAC testing (authors analogy) is based on probable cause. The case where the hunter was arrested for cannabis during a game warden search is classic. What was the probable cause for searching that vehicle? He was observed returning from a hunt? That’s not a reasonable standard of evidence for probable cause. And this is why I oppose these searches.

 

[hank4elk]

Worry about PO'ed Ranchers...
$10k reward offered for info on BB ranch robbed last weekend. Ranch was locked & they came in off State Trust Lands next door.
New term for "Casing" is "Scouting"?
This was on a ranch 5 mi from my place. People poking around my place on private road has gotten my gated locked now when I'm gone & most everyone is armed around here.

 

[NMGuy]

For those who have gone through these roadblocks, are they simply checking your hunting license or are they actually asking to search your vehicle?

 

[Gila]

Worry about PO'ed Ranchers...
$10k reward offered for info on BB ranch robbed last weekend. Ranch was locked & they came in off State Trust Lands next door.
New term for "Casing" is "Scouting"?
This was on a ranch 5 mi from my place. People poking around my place on private road has gotten my gated locked now when I'm gone & most everyone is armed around here.

The home invasions here are by organized crime with auto weapons and body armor. The gangs come from ALB ans El Paso. Carry +p hand gun ammo and have big dogs deserving of names like brutus, buttkiss. They want to get in and out as fast as they can. They also want to high tail it to I25. They generally don't want to dodge bullets or deal with dogs. I have a camera and intercom at the gate. Someone will always be here so that really helps too.

Thay are taking hunting rigs at gunpoint now. At least here in NM we can go cocked - locked concealed on our person when in our vehicles. ATVs and UTVs are also considered vehicles for CC without a permit. I have a feeling we will see more road blocks this year with all of the bull crap going on. And I suspect those checks will be in more strategic locations as well.

 

[wyoboypt]

Doesn’t seem like anyone has the right to search my property or possessions without a warrant or probable cause.

 

[Gila]

Doesn’t seem like anyone has the right to search my property or possessions without a warrant or probable cause.

They don't and won't

 

[Handlebar]

The home invasions here are by organized crime with auto weapons and body armor. The gangs come from ALB ans El Paso. Carry +p hand gun ammo and have big dogs deserving of names like brutus, buttkiss. They want to get in and out as fast as they can. They also want to high tail it to I25. They generally don't want to dodge bullets or deal with dogs. I have a camera and intercom at the gate. Someone will always be here so that really helps too.

Thay are taking hunting rigs at gunpoint now. At least here in NM we can go cocked - locked concealed on our person when in our vehicles. ATVs and UTVs are also considered vehicles for CC without a permit. I have a feeling we will see more road blocks this year with all of the bull crap going on. And I suspect those checks will be in more strategic locations as well.

Are Home invasions on the rise in your area?

 

[Gila]

Actually they are on the decline where I am. We watch each other more closely now. Also more people are getting home sitters. We wave to each other on the road. We have been known to follow vehicles that don't look like they belong here. Security gates really help as well as stout fencing. Speaking about the country acreages and ranches where neighbors are at least 1/3 to 1/2 a mile apart or further.

 

[hank4elk]

Are Home invasions on the rise in your area?

Not common here,that I know of. Catron County ord. states every household to be armed. Everyone watches out for each other. SO office has some leads.
This year there are 3 times the draw tags & folks are noticing vehicles on roads they normally don't see anyone. Scouting or something....I have taken to locking my gate after a drive in a month ago when I was not here for an hour.
Someone drove into a ranch last week & when rancher came out to see who,they backed out OVER his dog & left....
...so, have your ducks in a bundle when visiting this county for a while.

 

[MTGomer]

Last year I had the opposite as expected experience with a rancher in the NM/AZ border area. I went down a road my OnX said was a BLM route to where I wanted to go. It actually deadened at a ranch house. I started to turn around and the rancher came outside. I couldn’t get away from this guy!
I think he was so glad to have someone to talk to other than his wife and border collies. After at least an hour and a half he told me a few good spots to hunt and said if I needed anything to come back.

 

[AggieOutlaw]

They don't and won't

Keep telling yourself that

 

[AggieOutlaw]

For those who have gone through these roadblocks, are they simply checking your hunting license or are they actually asking to search your vehicle?

They will ask "have you been hunting or fishing?"
Then they will ask "are you in possession of any game?"

Assuming you're not stinking of booze and answer no to both, you're on your way. Otherwise, expect more questions and a search.

 

[Gila]

Keep telling yourself that

It is a state thing...not a federal issue. If you want to hunt in a particular state you have to agree to abide by their rules, regulations and laws. If you don't like it, you can always attend a fish and game commission meeting (or hearing) and give your opinion. Also write your state reps and voice that opinion. Other than that, all of the complaining will go nowhere. I tend to agree with the Viking.

 

[Nick28]

you guys are making me nervous about hunting for my elk in the gila with all this gang and crime talk.