Ramsey debt viewpoint explained

[220yotekiller]

I agree but all the more reason he should avoid the hyperbole - the very people that need his message are the very people that are unlikely to be able to see the errors in it. And that is on him. If he provided more moderate and rational opinions on a few topics, we would be just another financial advisor, but by going full monty 11 on everything he has become a wealthy YouTube influencer. Fine for him, not always fine for his watchers.

He got wealthy by not having debt, buying real estate, and just being a savvy businessman, to say otherwise is at best uneducated. He doesn't use or hurt people for his own gain, he isn't predatory, many of his platforms/businesses are ether free or at least have a free option.
Being successful with money really isn't that hard, it takes spending less than you make, being able to make and follow budget, and finally being ok with not having the latest and greatest new thing out there.
None of Dave's opinions or stances are new, read the Richest Man in Babylon or listen to any of Earl Nightingale's essays, heck read Proverbs and you will find the exact same advice. All Dave did was repackage those beliefs and truths for a modern audience.

 

[BigHornRam]

I do everything in tenths.

I measure everything to the 1/16", + or minus a red head or blond.

 

[Nick87]

I measure everything to the 1/16", + or minus a red head or blond.

Strawberry blonde is a measurement all its own. Concrete, asphalt, and Stone is inches everything else in tenths in our world. I'm pretty damn good with math but those first year or so using tenths instead of inches, I sure #@)(*%* up some numbers.

 

[FREAK]

Equating financial debating to dick measuring is a bit snowflake to me. There’s always better ways to do something. I’m thankful for those that have been willing to share failures, successes, and everything in between with me. Most of the better knowledge I’ve gained about finance was because of guys willing to hit me upside the head with truth. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your point @TOGIE. I feel like you could throw that comment in the middle of any debate if you chose to look at it through that lens.

 

[BigHornRam]

Equating financial debating to dick measuring is a bit snowflake to me. There’s always better ways to do something. I’m thankful for those that have been willing to share failures, successes, and everything in between with me. Most of the better knowledge I’ve gained about finance was because of guys willing to hit me upside the head with truth. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your point @TOGIE. I feel like you could throw that comment in the middle of any debate if you chose to look at it through that lens.

What @TOGIE was saying is, some people are happy being comfortably secure. Some people think being successful means reaching Jimmy John's status. Different strokes for different folks is all.

 

[FREAK]

What @TOGIE was saying is, some people are happy being comfortably secure. Some people think being successful means reaching Jimmy John's status. Different strokes for different folks is all.

Yeah I think trying to debate what it means to be “financially comfortable” is different than debating strategies on how to best manage money. We’re all going to have different goal posts when it comes to what being financially comfortable looks like(probably highly influenced by our social/economic backgrounds). The best way to manage money is applicable to everyone regardless of financial circumstances.

 

[TOGIE]

Equating financial debating to dick measuring is a bit snowflake to me. There’s always better ways to do something. I’m thankful for those that have been willing to share failures, successes, and everything in between with me. Most of the better knowledge I’ve gained about finance was because of guys willing to hit me upside the head with truth. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your point @TOGIE. I feel like you could throw that comment in the middle of any debate if you chose to look at it through that lens.

The point is that Ramsey debates very rarely focus on the basic merits and successes, or lack thereof, of his program. It always tends to focus on “my way is richer”; “my way is smarter.” And my maybe ones way is richer or smarter, but someone will even yet have a richer or smarter way.

If the folks who live across the street from me, totally of their own volition, decided to parse out their monthly budget in cash to teach themselves some self control and save more money I’d probably think “wow good for them to pursue better financial management.” I wouldn’t think, wow what a bunch of weird losers that’s such a silly thing to do. If someone else decided they like the simplistic model of avoiding debt, paying off their house early and avoiding being beholden to payments lessening the scary prospect of what happens if they lose their job id think “great! That’s a great approach to self control and being safe and wise with your money.” I wouldn’t chastise them for not seeking to instead find returns with their extra money in the s&p. At the end of the day they’re still making wise and responsible choices

 

[VikingsGuy]

The point is that Ramsey debates very rarely focus on the basic merits and successes, or lack thereof, of his program. It always tends to focus on “my way is richer”; “my way is smarter.” And my maybe ones way is richer or smarter, but someone will even yet have a richer or smarter way.

If the folks who live across the street from me, totally of their own volition, decided to parse out their monthly budget in cash to teach themselves some self control and save more money I’d probably think “wow good for them to pursue better financial management.” I wouldn’t think, wow what a bunch of weird losers that’s such a silly thing to do. If someone else decided they like the simplistic model of avoiding debt, paying off their house early and avoiding being beholden to payments lessening the scary prospect of what happens if they lose their job id think “great! That’s a great approach to self control and being safe and wise with your money.” I wouldn’t chastise them for not seeking to instead find returns with their extra money in the s&p. At the end of the day they’re still making wise and responsible choices

The problem is that folks on this thread keep misrepresenting the criticisms raised about Ramsey. No one on this thread has denied the basic "save more and spend less" advice is good. No one has denied that some folks lack the discipline to use credit effectively. No one is arguing for sophisticated and nuanced leverage investing in order to "win" (99% should stay away from "leveraged investing" except for mortgages). It has nothing to do with winning or losing. It is that his overly rigid approach to debt is objectively harmful to folks of all kinds in meeting their personal goals - modest or otherwise. People will have to work harder and longer and have a lower probability of achieving their goals due to clearly bad advice he hands out in a few areas. Particularly his approach to mortgages and student loan debt.

 

[BigHornRam]

The problem is that folks on this thread keep misrepresenting the criticisms raised about Ramsey. No one on this thread has denied the basic "save more and spend less" advice is good. No one has denied that some folks lack the discipline to use credit effectively. No one is arguing for sophisticated and nuanced leverage investing in order to "win" (99% should stay away from "leveraged investing" except for mortgages). It has nothing to do with winning or losing. It is that his overly rigid approach to debt is objectively harmful to folks of all kinds in meeting their personal goals - modest or otherwise. People will have to work harder and longer and have a lower probability of achieving their goals due to clearly bad advice he hands out in a few areas. Particularly his approach to mortgages and student loan debt.

I get it. You have a boner for Ramsey. Get over it already.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I get it. You have a boner for Ramsey. Get over it already.

Don't really care about him, but do care that average folks get bad advice parroted by folks who either know enough to know better or don't know enough and therefore should remain quiet.

 

[BigHornRam]

Don't really care about him, but do care that average folks get bad advice parroted by folks who either know enough to know better or don't know enough and therefore should remain quiet.

That should include you.

 

[TOGIE]

What are the exact quoted words, videos or paragraphs from his books on student debt that doesn’t have anything to do paying it off? I’ve heard him talk about mortgages plenty and I wouldn’t call it harmful at all.

I would agree, 15 is probably way too strict for first timers on mortgages and if followed to the letter will keep people out of the game that otherwise could’ve gotten in. But the key is that 15 years 20 down is “preferred” I don’t think he’s ever said it’s the only allowable way to buy a house

 

[SAJ-99]

If the folks who live across the street from me, totally of their own volition, decided to parse out their monthly budget in cash to teach themselves some self control and save more money I’d probably think “wow good for them to pursue better financial management.” I wouldn’t think, wow what a bunch of weird losers that’s such a silly thing to do. If someone else decided they like the simplistic model of avoiding debt, paying off their house early and avoiding being beholden to payments lessening the scary prospect of what happens if they lose their job id think “great! That’s a great approach to self control and being safe and wise with your money.” I wouldn’t chastise them for not seeking to instead find returns with their extra money in the s&p. At the end of the day they’re still making wise and responsible choices

I agree that none of us should judge others, but there is certainly good advice and bad advice, all existing on a continuum. If your neighbor chose to put cash in coffee cans and bury it in the back yard as a saving strategy, that is bad. Unequivocally. Choosing to pay down debt is generally good. Not taking on debt is mixed but generally impossible. Ramsey is fine, but each person's situation is unique and requires customized advice. This is where I take exception to some of Ramsey's selling "easy principles" for $49.99. Maybe they are a little too generic.

Agree whole heartedly with each person finding what is comfortable. But I take away from the HT threads discussing gas prices, taxes, government debt, egg prices, and "when can I retire" that comfortable is a bit ephemeral and hard to determine. It can be here today, gone tomorrow. Some people will just never be comfortable. When Rockerfeller was asked “How much money is enough?” he replied, “Just a little bit more”. If someone feels comfortable and then a 30% drop in their retirement savings makes them uncomfortable, I'm sure Ramsey will sell them advice for $49.99 that basically equates to "get a part-time job".

 

[cgasner1]

Don't really care about him, but do care that average folks get bad advice parroted by folks who either know enough to know better or don't know enough and therefore should remain quiet.

And these people get to dump bacon grease down the drain of their rental with no worries. Life isn’t fair wish my Saturday morning was that simple

 

[cgasner1]

I agree that none of us should judge others, but there is certainly good advice and bad advice, all existing on a continuum. If your neighbor chose to put cash in coffee cans and bury it in the back yard as a saving strategy, that is bad. Unequivocally. Choosing to pay down debt is generally good. Not taking on debt is mixed but generally impossible. Ramsey is fine, but each person's situation is unique and requires customized advice. This is where I take exception to some of Ramsey's selling "easy principles" for $49.99. Maybe they are a little too generic.

Agree whole heartedly with each person finding what is comfortable. But I take away from the HT threads discussing gas prices, taxes, government debt, egg prices, and "when can I retire" that comfortable is a bit ephemeral and hard to determine. It can be here today, gone tomorrow. Some people will just never be comfortable. When Rockerfeller was asked “How much money is enough?” he replied, “Just a little bit more”. If someone feels comfortable and then a 30% drop in their retirement savings makes them uncomfortable, I'm sure Ramsey will sell them advice for $49.99 that basically equates to "get a part-time job".

I got 8 singles of h1000 in my basement.
I work because I by choose to

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Different strokes, we pay for pretty much anything that we buy in person in cash.

Totally, for me not using cash is entirely convenience, just a PITA to go to an ATM and the fee is going to be be way more than a CC fee if you aren't judicious about it... our banks are out of state ya da ya da ya da...

If I was occasionally getting paid in cash would definitely use it for in person transactions.

Was thinking back to the conversation of what would be the best to teach kids in a HS personal finance course.

I think my biggest issue with all kinds of finance influencers oh which I would include Ramsey is that they say "this is the way to do it" rather than providing an education on how everything works and then letting folks pick what is best for them.

Personal finance strategies depend a ton on your situation, goals, time of life etc. I'd love to see a course that taught;

Life insurance, who needs it. Term v. Whole - when to buy each when not to
Mortgage 15/30 v. ARM, buying points. How to conduct a transaction, basics of title/property taxes/ deeds
Types of deeds; Quit Claim, Warranty Deed, Bargain and Sale, etc.
Checking v. sayings
Retirement Roth v. Traditional
401ks, IRAs, 403Bs,

Everyone's circumstances are a bit different all of these exist for a reason and I think it would be constructive to give kids an idea of why it all exists and how they might utilize them in their lives.

 

[Pucky Freak]

therefore should remain quiet.

Srsly? And then what, listen to you instead?

 

[VikingsGuy]

Srsly? And then what, listen to you instead?

Nope - follow real experts and math instead of YouTube pablum

 

[Pucky Freak]

The nice thing about financial threads on this forum is we get a lot of varying opinions. I’ve learned all kinds of interesting stuff. I’d like to believe “average folks” have the capacity to shift through a variety of information, chart a course for themselves, and understand why they doing what they’re doing.

 

[FREAK]

The nice thing about financial threads on this forum is we get a lot of varying opinions. I’ve learned all kinds of interesting stuff. I’d like to believe “average folks” have the capacity to shift through a variety of information, chart a course for themselves, and understand why they doing what they’re doing.

That’s it for me too, I like to hear what everyone thinks is best and make decisions based on research, math, and what best supports my family’s financial goals.