Pronghorn populations rebound on refuge

[Ten Bears]

I hunt coyotes when the market pays enough to go gun them. Even then I don't try to kill to many. I try to stick with the ideology of killing only what I'm gonna eat, and dog is low on my menu. Otherwise I enjoy seeing them once and awhile.

BUZZ, I said what is "good" habitat for one species does not mean it is "good" habitat for {all} species. Before you jump all over that, maybe you should consider the nongame aspect. Whether it is insects, reptiles, rodents......., when one species wins, another loses out (think about it).

 

[cjcj]

Buzz once again you show what an ignorant young FOOL you are! i guess it takes a street bioligist to inform you that the USA is overpopulated with coyotes! that is a fact but i guess if you didn`t read it in your manual so you don`t know it! and Ithaca,your buddy can do what he wants on his land, why does he have so many mice, with all of those coyotes, i think your full of it! the coyotes are WAY out of balance and you know it, to bad Buzzy doesn`t, remember when there were no coyotes east of the mississippi? now they are everywhere [including honolulu] yes i HATE them, they have killed my chickens [natural instinct] they killed my wife`s cats so it was her natural instinct to kill them, and i HATE rattlesnakes also! you and Buzz are the main reason that i would take a street bioligist`s word anytime! oh those poor coyotes we must not hate them, why don`t you and Buzz get one for a pet?

 

[Ithaca 37]

cj, "Ithaca,your buddy can do what he wants on his land, why does he have so many mice, with all of those coyotes, i think your full of it!" Try to calm down and think rationally, cj. I never said he has lots of mice. He says the coyotes keep the mice down. This observation is based on his 81 years of living on the tree farm. You gonna argue with a "street biologist" like that?

 

[cjcj]

WEll Ithaca now that you mention he`s been a street guy for 81 yrs. that does give him some credability. what i just can`t understand about you and Buzz is, you think youre the pro`s, and its the pro`s [game& fish] that are telling everyone to shoot all of the yotes they see! that`s why they pay for a private Co. to shoot coyotes from helicopters, are you and Buzz the only ones who no everything[NOT] don`t you think the other pro`s [AZ G&F] know anything? I know more about coyotes than Buzz ever dreamed of, i`ve see them live on nothing but grasshoppers etc. yes they are very adaptable, and it`s a fact you can`t kill enough of them, i`ll let you know when there on the verge of extinction ok. then again according to Buzzboys post we could always FEED them to death!

 

[Ithaca 37]

cj, "its the pro`s [game& fish] that are telling everyone to shoot all of the yotes they see! that`s why they pay for a private Co. to shoot coyotes from helicopters,"

They don't tell us that in Idaho. The F&G here has no official policy encouraging people to shoot every coyote they see. If that's the official policy in AZ how about quoting it and showing the source? Do you have any proof the AZ F&G pays a private company to shoot coyotes from helicopters? How is that item descibed in the F&G budget. Do you know the total cost per coyote? That's something you should be aware of since it's your license $ they're spending (if your claim is true). I don't believe it is. Possibly a fed or state animal damage control dept. is doing something like that in AZ. Can you show us any facts?

 

[MULE]

Well the PRO's (Colorado division of wildlife) did pay to have coyotes aerial gunned on the west slope for deer survival and again in southeastern colorado by Kim for antelope.

This was a couple years back. But obviously in SOME PLACES coyotes are a problem

 

[cjcj]

Well Ithaca its a fact! [they paid a private co. to shoot coyotes] since i admit openly that i am extremly poor on my computer skills, i basically am on an old packard bell that is about 10 yrs. old i don`t have a scanner, or any skills. to post anything, i do this stuff[post for fun] i might take a class or something, but really i don`t care if you believe it or not, your an expert at research, you can look it up, or call az game and fish at 602-942-3000, but i do know how to get on there website azgfd.com, if i find it i`ll tell you where i saw it. maybee some az guys know about it and can post it, hey i`m lucky i can even type, and i`m very slow, you see i know my limitations[ poor p.c.skills] but being truthfull is what i do best! `

 

[cjcj]

Mule you can`t make that statement without showing Ithaca proof! blood,DNA, pictures, etc. or he won`t believe you, and by the way Ithaca i never said it was cost effective to shootem that way, i just said they do it , just the fact`s from the old street bioligist.

 

[BuzzH]

cjcj said, "Buzz once again you show what an ignorant young FOOL you are! i guess it takes a street bioligist to inform you that the USA is overpopulated with coyotes! that is a fact but i guess if you didn`t read it in your manual so you don`t know it!"

Hey cjcj, would you mind going back and find the part where I said that coyotes werent over-populated.

You're an old fool who doesnt know his ass from hot rocks, and that is a fact.

I'd have to say my deceased friend, Bud Mcauley, in all liklihood forgot more about predators in his life than you'll ever know.

Much of my knowledge and ability to successfully kill coyotes, fox, bobcats, etc. came from discussions and spending time with him. The guy lived to be 92 years old, died a couple years back, and worked for 40+ years for the USFWS. I'd say he's got just a bit more knowledge of predators than your average street biologist, thats strictly a guess though. His son is also a hell of predator hunter too, and still lives in White Sulphur Springs.

All I can tell you for sure about coyotes, is the F&G, hunters, gov. hunters, and everything else combined will not wipe out coyotes, ever. All those years of heavy, heavy, heavy, hunting, trapping, etc. in the 60's-80's didnt come even close to controlling coyote numbers. Why do you find it shocking that theres still a bunch around? I dont. You hating them and killing them is a joke, you wont even make a dent.

If you'd of taken time to read my post and use what little comprehension skills you possess, you would realize that everything you stated in the last post was crap you made up in your imagination. I never made a statement one about coyote populations past or present. Only that constant warfare on them hasnt made a dent, which is true.

 

[BuzzH]

Oh, and because of my notorious insecurities, heres some proof of what a 86 year old government hunter was able to teach a couple dumb young fools to do...my buddy Doug and I hammered these fur bearers/predators in 2 consecutive years...during one week we had off from college over Christmas.

Year number one.

Year number two. All taken in 6 days.

Just the predators.

Not too shabby for a couple dumb young fools who can only find info in manuals.

 

[JoseCuervo]

CJ,

Hey buddy, how you doin' with McCain and getting rid of them dams? You got to keep the pressure on....

This thread is interesting in that we have an action (removing Welfare Rancher's cattle from the refuge), and an effect (increased Pronghorn populations), and we have people questioning the biologists ability to interpert the data. As Hunters, we should all celebrate the USFWS getting out of the Welfare Ranching business, and the increased populations.

The Welfare Ranchers should have to prove that their overgrazing will not hurt Pronghorn populations. My guess is this would be easy to test. Are Pronghorn populations rebounding at the same rate on Welfare Rancher's grazing allottments? The weather factor would be similar on the Welfare Rancher's grazed land. I doubt any biologist would miss this analysis.

Antelope and Welfare Ranchers are incompatible in Idaho and Eastern Oregon. The reason being, in my opinion, is that the Antelope like to come into the hay fields and eat, and given that the hay fields are on the deeded land, the Welfare Ranchers think the Antelope are stealing from them. And unlike a Mule deer that will sneak back out of the hay fields at Sunrise, the damn, arrogant, antelope will just hang in the field all day, pissing and shitting in the Welfare Rancher's hay for winter. I have skinned Antelope that have .22 slugs lodged under the skin, the result of private harassment programs by the Welfare Rancher.

Hey Buzz,

What page in the Manual did you find all them Dawgs to shoot???

 

[cjcj]

So you BUY pelts?

 

[BuzzH]

cjcj, I think it was page 231.

I killed them by over-feeding them.

Theres some people on here with some wild-assed imaginations who obviously need hooked on phonics.

 

[Troy Jones]

Blame it on the rancher again. Sounds like a broken record. Do you have anything else to talk about ithaca? How many goats do you want? They are everywhere here, take them.

 

[BuzzH]

cjcj, Never been in the buying business...which is why I dont buy any pelts or your bullshit.

Ever seen one of these? I doubt it, you probably dont even know what it is. But, thats right, you're the expert on predators.

You may recognize one of these, but them scrubby crapcats you have in AZ arent worth skinning, like you'd know how to skin anyway. Oh, yeah, and this one was caught in the same set as the above critter.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Troy, "Blame it on the rancher again." When 60% of all BLM is in poor condition due to overgrazing who do YOU think should be getting the blame?

 

[1_pointer]

I agree that in some places, removal of cattle and coyotes will cause an increase in pronghorns. However, the reverse is also true. The ranch I conducted my research on has increased the pronghorn population from 0 in 1983 to over 600 now. Though they have destocked in the last couple of years due to drought, the cattle herd increased from 2500 in 1983 to over 4000 now. Additionally, they quit aerial gunning of coyotes. A cowboy will pop one occasionally, and there are some trappers that take a few off of the north boundary of the ranch, but that's it. There reason for not controlling coyotes (or badgers) is that each help keep the mice and rabbit populations in check, which in turn keep the Golden Eagles from getting too high. Goldens are a major predator for sagegrouse that has been petitioned for listing in Utah.

Another ranch I know of in WY likes to keep 50% of its ranch in excellent conditions, 25% in good, and 25% in poor conditions. This is done to manage for the highest amount of biodiversity, as some animals (particular species of songbirds) do better with less vegetation around.

I disagree that the only relationship pertinent to the pronghorn increase is due to cattle. I'm not saying that it is not the driving factor, but feel that there is not enough information provided in article for me to draw a concrete conclusion. I do feel that if the land has been set aside for a pronghorn refuge, that management should be in place to ensure that their population maintenence be the highest priority.

Just a question, any ever consider that the F&G departments may aerial gun coyotes because that is demanded by the citizen of that state, even if they understand that in certain areas it will not be all that beneficial? Sometimes an action may be mandated by an agency or group of citizens without the consent of the "pro's". A good example of this is the Wild Horse and Burro Act. I have yet to meet a wildlife biologist that agrees with that law, however they are forced to manage within it.

 

[Troy Jones]

I would say the BLM's fault. They set the allotments and the rancher is just taking advantage of it. Does that mean if any of us find a good deal we are son of a bitches for taking advantage of it? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but you need to look at both sides.

As far as the government goes, there are countless programs out there that waste a lot more money, without helping anything or any body.

Being a realist, I try to put things into perspective. If 3% of your State's land is BLM and 60% is overgrazed that leaves 1.8%. Say that 1.8% of land affects 50% of the wildlife, because that is all it can sustain. That leaves "probably a little high" the overgrazing of BLM affecting 0.9% of huntable wildlife in your state. How does that affect the overall wellfare of the hunting or wildlife in your state? Not a lot. Things that do have an enormous effect on wildlife populations; disease, predation, hunting, automobiles. I suppose you want to outlaw hunting and highways now?

 

[Ten Bears]

BUZZ, was that Bud McCaully(?).

Troy, I say it's the Blm's fault for not monitoring the grazing impacts. But I also blame the Rancher for taking advantage of the BLM's lack of monitoring. I don't quite follow your math, but that's ok.

 

[cjcj]

HeY Buzz, you need to provide a catalog of where every coyote was killed,whether it was an Alpha [male or female]runt of the litter,pictures of it`s gut`s, what it was eating, a scat sample etc. since you stated i don`t know crap about coyotes, you can educate me ! i will expect a "full report" on my desk first thing in the morning!