Prescribed Burn Arrest

[TOGIE]

and states will obviously manage it sooooooo much better. especially because they clearly manage so many other things so much better. most especially because my state has to have a balanced budget each year, i.e. no debt... last years 2 billion in fire losses on one fire alone and who knows how much spent on fire fighting.... gonna be 200% income tax increase to cover that chit.

probably should just privatize it

 

[FI460]

and states will obviously manage it sooooooo much better. especially because they clearly manage so many other things so much better. most especially because my state has to have a balanced budget each year, i.e. no debt... last years 2 billion in fire losses on one fire alone and who knows how much spent on fire fighting.... gonna be 200% income tax increase to cover that chit.

probably should just privatize it

Definitely no history of liquidating state timber land in almost all of the west.

Definitely hasn't been any controversy or litigation over logging practices, especially in Oregon. Cough* Elliot State Forest almost sold to private timber* cough cough.

Weyerhauser style investment properties. Now that's a model we should all get behind

 

[kwyeewyk]

I also own businesses across the street from the USDA office so I have first hand knowledge on what they accomplish on a daily basis

This line is my favorite.

 

[sapperJ24]

I haven't found what the USFS does a good job of to be honest. My take is the USFS has already turned over the management of wildlife on it's land to the state so it probably makes the most sense to allow the states to mange things like the grazing and timber resources along with local law enforcement as opposed to federal LEO's. States are simply better at managing land and get more for the resources. Sheriffs departments are simply better at enforcing laws than the USFS LEO's. Grazing rights states could probably get around $20 per AUM, vs $1.35 the feds get. States will get more logging projects done, more wood utilized, less fires, less $ wasted fighting fires, etc.... You see it around places like Bozeman where USFS land is completely overgrown and projects get stopped by lawsuits but miraculously on state land the projects keep moving.

The reason everyone stays around after fires is to milk uncle sam for every last dime. It's a big business opportunity.

So I think we can check the following off what the USFS is good at.
1. Managing forests, utilizing wood, etc.. Very little focus on utilization.
2. Managing grazing rights, literally getting pennies on the dollar and not holding lease holders accountable.
3. Managing wildlife, already turned over to state,
4. Running a nationwide trade school where they have to hire contractors to do most of the actual work since USFS cant' seem to get it done. No idea how this happened.
5. Managing recreation, evident by the offices all being closed on weekend so usfs staff can go home. lol
6. Enforcing laws. This is all but non existent for off roading, littering, camping more than 14 days, unoccupied campers, etc...
7. Managing fuels, fire management where they spend nothing in an area for wood utilization but will drop millions to fight a fire. Even worse situations like New Mexico where USFS staff caused billions in damages. Great management right there.
8. Real Estate. With so many claims, private land mixed in huge pieces of USFS, private homes on leased USFS land, Land locked inaccessible land, etc. its hard to say they really have done a good job of managing the real-estate situation.



So to be honest I am really not sure what function the USFS could really do other than a small staff that worked with the states to collect information on forests while turning most of the management of the land and funding over to the states. At that point the states would take over and hire the best staff including some of the best USFS folks while leaving most of the dead weight to find another job.

As far as me I have personally built fire stations with huge reimbursement funding from fires on federal land. My family is heavily involved in federal contracting so I have seen this incompetence from many federal agencies not just the USFS. I have done many contracting projects for the USFS and have had many interaction with USFS Job Corps training centers. For example I managed a full renovation of the USFS offices in Chadron NE, where for 3 months we watched a girl who literally sat and played on her phone almost all day. She did not realize we could see her and she literally just played all day. I have been around many USFS fire crews including my brother is a life long USFS employee including working fires. So yea I know a bit about the USFS. I also own businesses across the street from the USDA office so I have first hand knowledge on what they accomplish on a daily basis.

As far as fire crews it just seems like a huge money grab. Contractors, fire fighters, VFD's, air support crews, etc all get in line to make a killing off the USFS. I am sure you have seen plenty of it.

I appreciate your honesty

Thanks for taking the time for sharing your perspective. There's a lot of criticism in here that I agree with, I just disagree with the remedy.

1. I'd like to see more utilization, my forest has been pretty successful in using the Good Neighbor Authority with the state to get projects accomplished.
2. I don't know anyone who disagrees with this, except for lease holders. It is generally up to the Permit Administrator to make sure the permittee is in compliance.
3. In my opinion the state held management of the wildlife first, the FS was reluctant to get into management. The state still manages the game, but the FS now considers some sensitive or threatened species when making decisions.

4. Yeah, Job Corps... not the best representation for the FS (although the program is administered by the Dept of Labor), very limited success. That said, I see the Job Corps as the last opportunity for these kids to get some life skills. Without Job Corps they are probably on the fast track to jail, and maybe a few of them with Job Corps training will choose a different path. Either way we're paying for these kids.

5. Generally agreed, although I work at a 7 day/week station (all functions) from Memorial Day to Columbus Day. We get calls for information for all over the place on the weekend.
6. Again agreed. There's one LEO for 2.5 million acres here, he has a coworker (for the other million acres on forest) and a patrol captain. He can spend a whole week writing tickets from the pavement and never think about driving 60 miles of dirt north or south.
7. Yes, it is frustrating. I'll blame litigation for a lot of this. There's also not much market for small diameter wood that I'm aware of.
8. I have no experience with this, so I can't offer any thoughts other than it doesn't sound like a good situation.

There's good money to be made in fire, just not for the federal employee on the ground. We're usually the cheapest folks there. It is aggravating for almost everyone to be ordered to a dead fire and just sit there. And yup, there are some guys who would rather be on a dead fire than working, "pays the same." And most people I work with find that frustrating.

Working for the federal government is often extremely frustrating and unrewarding. I show up for work for the people in the office with me, not for some far off regional forester or administration. Maybe I'm lucky and have a really good group of folks around me, but we all want to appropriately manage the land around us.

Just my opinions, and maybe a few excuses too, thanks for the discussion.

 

[Sytes]

Oregon's kinda a mess all around. Wasn't too long ago people, in the name of Black Lives Matter, felt it was beneficial to attempt ransacking the Portland Federal Court Building. Urine, Human feces bags hurled at Federal Officers protecting the building. Marshals, CBP, FPS struck by this because...

 

[Irrelevant]

Thanks for taking the time for sharing your perspective. There's a lot of criticism in here that I agree with, I just disagree with the remedy.

1. I'd like to see more utilization, my forest has been pretty successful in using the Good Neighbor Authority with the state to get projects accomplished.
2. I don't know anyone who disagrees with this, except for lease holders. It is generally up to the Permit Administrator to make sure the permittee is in compliance.
3. In my opinion the state held management of the wildlife first, the FS was reluctant to get into management. The state still manages the game, but the FS now considers some sensitive or threatened species when making decisions.

4. Yeah, Job Corps... not the best representation for the FS (although the program is administered by the Dept of Labor), very limited success. That said, I see the Job Corps as the last opportunity for these kids to get some life skills. Without Job Corps they are probably on the fast track to jail, and maybe a few of them with Job Corps training will choose a different path. Either way we're paying for these kids.

5. Generally agreed, although I work at a 7 day/week station (all functions) from Memorial Day to Columbus Day. We get calls for information for all over the place on the weekend.
6. Again agreed. There's one LEO for 2.5 million acres here, he has a coworker (for the other million acres on forest) and a patrol captain. He can spend a whole week writing tickets from the pavement and never think about driving 60 miles of dirt north or south.
7. Yes, it is frustrating. I'll blame litigation for a lot of this. There's also not much market for small diameter wood that I'm aware of.
8. I have no experience with this, so I can't offer any thoughts other than it doesn't sound like a good situation.

There's good money to be made in fire, just not for the federal employee on the ground. We're usually the cheapest folks there. It is aggravating for almost everyone to be ordered to a dead fire and just sit there. And yup, there are some guys who would rather be on a dead fire than working, "pays the same." And most people I work with find that frustrating.

Working for the federal government is often extremely frustrating and unrewarding. I show up for work for the people in the office with me, not for some far off regional forester or administration. Maybe I'm lucky and have a really good group of folks around me, but we all want to appropriately manage the land around us.

Just my opinions, and maybe a few excuses too, thanks for the discussion.

I commend your patience

 

[rogerthat]

Grazing rates are mandated in the grazing regs. Not something the forest service can just change. Generally a lot of what both you clowns say the forest service is bad at is systemic issues, mandated by law or regulations(you should know of the FAR @PrairieHunter right? since your so educated on federal contracting), or due to a lack of funding all of which is controlled by Congress (ever heard of being set up to fail?) but carry on with your conversation since you guys know so much

By the way my state government absolutely sucks when it comes to its land management…well actually my state government mostly sucks at everything…I have ridiculous knowledge on this just like you guys since I worked for my state government…sarcasm so as you don’t get confused

 

[sapperJ24]

Generally a lot of what both you clowns say the forest service is bad at is systemic issues, mandated by law or regulations, or due to a lack of funding all of which is controlled by Congress (ever heard of being set up to fail?) but carry on with your conversation since you guys know so much

Yes, that is pretty much what I'm saying.


edit to clarify. My remedy for those issues would be to fully fund the FS. Generally not what people complaining about govt spending want to hear and doesn't continue any dialogue. Either way, I think everyone can agree Congress sucks!

 

[sapperJ24]

I commend your patience

I'd rather try to talk about things here than watch some rookie get cornered at a gas station in the middle of nowhere because someone's grandpappy couldn't cut some trees in the early 90's.

 

[flatcoat]

Little late to this thread, I've been on fires in North/Central ID where we were escorted most places by the national guard with local militias keeping an eye on us. This year we had a strike team of structure engines from around the state ready to head for Salmon when the Moose fire kicked off and the locals told us to F off, they didn't want any federal involvement (we're not the feds).

 

[PrairieHunter]

Grazing rates are mandated in the grazing regs. Not something the forest service can just change. Generally a lot of what both you clowns say the forest service is bad at is systemic issues, mandated by law or regulations(you should know of the FAR @PrairieHunter right? since your so educated on federal contracting), or due to a lack of funding all of which is controlled by Congress (ever heard of being set up to fail?) but carry on with your conversation since you guys know so much

By the way my state government absolutely sucks when it comes to its land management…well actually my state government mostly sucks at everything…I have ridiculous knowledge on this just like you guys since I worked for my state government…sarcasm so as you don’t get confused

If the USFS can't get the job done then someone else needs to be in charge.

When people change the subject to personal chatter it's obvious what was said bothers you . The reason for that is because it's true. Try not to make it so obvious next time.

lol

 

[PrairieHunter]

Thanks for taking the time for sharing your perspective. There's a lot of criticism in here that I agree with, I just disagree with the remedy.

1. I'd like to see more utilization, my forest has been pretty successful in using the Good Neighbor Authority with the state to get projects accomplished.
2. I don't know anyone who disagrees with this, except for lease holders. It is generally up to the Permit Administrator to make sure the permittee is in compliance.
3. In my opinion the state held management of the wildlife first, the FS was reluctant to get into management. The state still manages the game, but the FS now considers some sensitive or threatened species when making decisions.

4. Yeah, Job Corps... not the best representation for the FS (although the program is administered by the Dept of Labor), very limited success. That said, I see the Job Corps as the last opportunity for these kids to get some life skills. Without Job Corps they are probably on the fast track to jail, and maybe a few of them with Job Corps training will choose a different path. Either way we're paying for these kids.

5. Generally agreed, although I work at a 7 day/week station (all functions) from Memorial Day to Columbus Day. We get calls for information for all over the place on the weekend.
6. Again agreed. There's one LEO for 2.5 million acres here, he has a coworker (for the other million acres on forest) and a patrol captain. He can spend a whole week writing tickets from the pavement and never think about driving 60 miles of dirt north or south.
7. Yes, it is frustrating. I'll blame litigation for a lot of this. There's also not much market for small diameter wood that I'm aware of.
8. I have no experience with this, so I can't offer any thoughts other than it doesn't sound like a good situation.

There's good money to be made in fire, just not for the federal employee on the ground. We're usually the cheapest folks there. It is aggravating for almost everyone to be ordered to a dead fire and just sit there. And yup, there are some guys who would rather be on a dead fire than working, "pays the same." And most people I work with find that frustrating.

Working for the federal government is often extremely frustrating and unrewarding. I show up for work for the people in the office with me, not for some far off regional forester or administration. Maybe I'm lucky and have a really good group of folks around me, but we all want to appropriately manage the land around us.

Just my opinions, and maybe a few excuses too, thanks for the discussion.

I appreciate the honesty. You seem to be realistic about the situation.

I keep waiting for someone to explain what the USFS is good at and so far nobody has.

It just seems like the USFS needs an overhaul IMO.

I agree on things like Job Corps, I just don't think the USFS is really qualified to run a nationwide technical job training school.

 

[TheJason]

If the USFS can't get the job done then someone else needs to be in charge.

When people change the subject to personal chatter it's obvious what was said bothers you . The reason for that is because it's true. Try not to make it so obvious next time.

lol

You do realize the USFS and BLM have no control over grazing rates, right?

Sorry, but when you attach blame to them for this grievance it becomes difficult to take your complaints seriously.

As far as what they do well? I think it’s important to view things from the context of multiple use mandates. Following NEPA and multiple use policy will never be fast or efficient. It’s like turning an ocean tanker. That’s not all good and it’s not all bad.

I think a good comparison that illustrates my point is comparing the USFS to the USFWS. The mandate of the FS is exceedingly broad compared to the FWS. When you look at what can and does happen within the refuge system, it really drives home how difficult it is to operate under such broad mandates.

 

[rogerthat]

If the USFS can't get the job done then someone else needs to be in charge.

When people change the subject to personal chatter it's obvious what was said bothers you . The reason for that is because it's true. Try not to make it so obvious next time.

lol

Change the subject? I think you just did that. You know what the FAR is genius? You said you know a lot about federal contracting. Prove it.

Personal chatter? Not sure what I said that was personal. Just by reading your post, it’s obvious to me you are not very educated about the forest service, the issues they face, and why the issues exist in the first place.

Some of my favorite hunting spots are on forest service and I am damn appreciative they exist and I get the opportunity to access them. Overall their management is okay depending on the forest and the resource asset. Much better than some private landowners and much worse than others as can be expected.

It’s fine with me if you want to spout your opinion, but it’s just that an opinion. One I happen to find fairly ignorant and not grounded in the realities the USFS has to operate within.

 

[PrairieHunter]

Change the subject? I think you just did that. You know what the FAR is genius? You said you know a lot about federal contracting. Prove it.

Personal chatter? Not sure what I said that was personal. Just by reading your post, it’s obvious to me you are not very educated about the forest service, the issues they face, and why the issues exist in the first place.

Some of my favorite hunting spots are on forest service and I am damn appreciative they exist and I get the opportunity to access them. Overall their management is okay depending on the forest and the resource asset. Much better than some private landowners and much worse than others as can be expected.

It’s fine with me if you want to spout your opinion, but it’s just that an opinion. One I happen to find fairly ignorant and not grounded in the realities the USFS has to operate within.

lol.

It's obvious who is changing the subject here. Also obvious who is trying to go personal here. lol. I have no need to prove anything to you.

I'll just let you be mad about what I said because it's true.

No need to try to hurl insults back at you.

 

[TheTone]

Little late to this thread, I've been on fires in North/Central ID where we were escorted most places by the national guard with local militias keeping an eye on us. This year we had a strike team of structure engines from around the state ready to head for Salmon when the Moose fire kicked off and the locals told us to F off, they didn't want any federal involvement (we're not the feds).

The lemhi live Facebook group was awful with comments regarding the moose fire.

Intentionally underfunding and staffing an agency is a great way to make them seem like they aren’t getting the job done. Politicians love to do that with land management groups because it furthers the narrative to “take back the land”.

 

[rogerthat]

lol.

It's obvious who is changing the subject here. Also obvious who is trying to go personal here. lol. I have no need to prove anything to you.

I'll just let you be mad about what I said because it's true.

No need to try to hurl insults back at you.

I’m definitely not mad. I could care less what some anonymous person on the internet thinks about the Usfs. You spout a bunch of ignorance, you can expect to get called out on it. That’s the bottom line.

 

[FI460]

To deny that the USFS is being hamstrung by congress, litigation, and under funding is absurd. There has been a faction of politicians intent on crippling the USFS from its inception. It's also very easy to criticize an agency when you perceive they aren't doing things as you would prefer, but if we're being honest the USFS cannot make everyone happy. That's the nature of things when an agency represents the interests of some 300 million people.

 

[QuazyQuinton]

I'm too lazy to look it up, but is this Grant County sheriff the same Grant County sheriff that openly sympathized/supported the Bundy takeover of the Malheur refuge? Do I remember that correctly?

QQ

 

[FI460]

I'm too lazy to look it up, but is this Grant County sheriff the same Grant County sheriff that openly sympathized/supported the Bundy takeover of the Malheur refuge? Do I remember that correctly?

QQ

No. Looks like that guy lost in 2020.

Grant County has a new sheriff in town, and he promises change

Long-time Grant County law enforcement officer Todd McKinley just unseated incumbent Sheriff Glenn Palmer. It was McKinley’s second bid for the position.

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