Points systems - when is it fraud

[Oak]

Don’t forget this thread.

Public School Math and Statistics

I guess we get what we paid for in that regard. WY Game department made North of $660,000(unless youth points are cheaper, which I have no idea) on suckers buying in for the first time on moose and sheep points for statistically zero chance of EVER getting a tag. Bighorn Sheep Preference...

www.hunttalk.com

Wyoming’s system is what it is. I expect that they will change it someday. Pure preference just doesn’t work for the species with the smallest populations. And as populations of all game species continue to dwindle, pure preference will be less sustainable for them as well. Just ask Zim. Change is inevitable. Don’t be surprised when it happens.

 

[BuzzH]

In my mind, selling nothing to the stupid is fraud. But in this case I guess it’s legalized fraud. I guess I can’t say with 100% certainty someone buying a point today for the first time would never draw a tag under the current system. Thinking 12 year old who plans to live a long life so I guess I have my answer

If I were a betting man, I think there will be changes.

I think it's going to be one of the following:

One would be to split the tags 50-50 random/preference.

Another would be take the total number of tags, split them 75-25 preference/random rather than by individual unit.

 

[Oak]

If I were a betting man, I think there will be changes.

I think it's going to be one of the following:

One would be to split the tags 50-50 random/preference.

Another would be take the total number of tags, split them 75-25 preference/random rather than by individual unit.

A lot of betting men are still buying points….

 

[Sawtooth]

That’s my plan. It’s faltering unfortunately

Here you go. Randy can help you with a free 30-day trial.

 

[rogerthat]

Don’t forget this thread.

Public School Math and Statistics

I guess we get what we paid for in that regard. WY Game department made North of $660,000(unless youth points are cheaper, which I have no idea) on suckers buying in for the first time on moose and sheep points for statistically zero chance of EVER getting a tag. Bighorn Sheep Preference...

www.hunttalk.com

Wyoming’s system is what it is. I expect that they will change it someday. Pure preference just doesn’t work for the species with the smallest populations. And as populations of all game species continue to dwindle, pure preference will be less sustainable for them as well. Just ask Zim. Change is inevitable. Don’t be surprised when it happens.

Yup. I’m not even slightly an upset nr like some of the folks on here. Just more of a thought I had today regarding point systems. I’m just a concerned citizen that thinks government can and should hold themselves to higher account for its citizens. In this case maybe Wyoming is. Get that money!

 

[BuzzH]

IMO, the 2 things I mentioned would be better for the DIY hunter. Reason is because some of the units that don't require a guide would actually have a random tag. As of now, most would never have a random tag until they issued 4 total NR tags for a unit.

 

[rogerthat]

Not to mention I’m sick of reading the “how to touch your relative while under the influence of viagra and cialis thread”. I find this topic much more interesting. Appreciate all the posts.

 

[HiMtnHntr]

No system is perfect when you’re playing for limited tags. I think a system the has random chances or chances for low point holders to draw is best.

I also think controlling access (ie: vehicles) to provide game more refuge and habitat as well as limiting weapons (ie: the 3,000 yard land cannons) is worth looking at to help keep game populations up as well as hunter opportunity. There’s only so much you can do with the draw systems.

 

[Jape]

As I read the numbers, when the Wyoming point system started in 1998 there were 250 sheep tags and 200 moose tags available. Now, there are 180 sheep tags and 100 moose tags available. I don’t see how the system cannot change unless people want to continue paying into something that cannot possibly provide them with a tag.

 

[BuzzH]

As I read the numbers, when the Wyoming point system started in 1998 there were 250 sheep tags and 200 moose tags available. Now, there are 180 sheep tags and 100 moose tags available. I don’t see how the system cannot change unless people want to continue paying into something that cannot possibly provide them with a tag.

Uh...no, your numbers are way off.

 

[Ckleeves]

I don’t think WY sheep is even close to fraud. In the words of Ricky Bobby:

“No one lives forever, no one. But with advances in modern science and my high level income, it's not crazy to think I can live to be 245, maybe 300. Heck, I just read in the newspaper that they put a pig heart in some guy from Russia.

Just gotta live long enough that’s it. It’s not a good strategy and buying your first sheep point this year probably isn’t the best idea but it’s certainly not fraud.

 

[DFS]

I don’t think WY sheep is even close to fraud. In the words of Ricky Bobby:

“No one lives forever, no one. But with advances in modern science and my high level income, it's not crazy to think I can live to be 245, maybe 300. Heck, I just read in the newspaper that they put a pig heart in some guy from Russia.

Just gotta live long enough that’s it. It’s not a good strategy and buying your first sheep point this year probably isn’t the best idea but it’s certainly not fraud.

Starting when you are 12 will most likely weed out most applicants that aren’t serious.

 

[npaden]

I’d say no because people go looking for points. No one made them spend that money.

Actually until just a couple years ago Wyoming forced you to buy sheep and moose points to apply. You weren’t allowed to enter the random draw without buying a point.

 

[Jape]

Uh...no, your numbers are way off.

The information I quoted was, in part, from an outdoor life article posted below. I’m curious what the numbers actually are if that is incorrect.

Can Wyoming Fix Its Preference Point Problem for Big Game Tags?

Wyoming is trying to amend its preference point system as more hunters are applying for big game tags and fewer tags are being allocated.

www.outdoorlife.com

 

[BuzzH]

The information I quoted was, in part, from an outdoor life article posted below. I’m curious what the numbers actually are if that is incorrect.

Can Wyoming Fix Its Preference Point Problem for Big Game Tags?

Wyoming is trying to amend its preference point system as more hunters are applying for big game tags and fewer tags are being allocated.

www.outdoorlife.com

That article is throwing numbers around that are pure nonsense.

Seems to be mixing total sheep tags in one sentence, then non resident quota in the next.

Total mess.

The number of sheep tags is declining, about 180 a year TOTAL.

Moose permits are close to 400 per year.

Also, 1998 was not even close to the maximum issued for sheep and moose.

@JM77 has old orders from the late 70's-2024. Back in the late 70's there were individual units issuing 200+ tags for moose. Sheep were 600 total IIRC...hopefully he will chime in with the numbers.

Also, 1998 was NOT the first year of points. If you look at last year's draw odds, 27 points was max. 2023-27 does not equal 1998 last I checked.

Poorly written article with crap numbers.

 

[cgasner1]

Actually until just a couple years ago Wyoming forced you to buy sheep and moose points to apply. You weren’t allowed to enter the random draw without buying a point.

How did they force you with gun or knife?

 

[Jape]

That article is throwing numbers around that are pure nonsense.

Seems to be mixing total sheep tags in one sentence, then non resident quota in the next.

Total mess.

The number of sheep tags is declining, about 180 a year TOTAL.

Moose permits are close to 400 per year.

Also, 1998 was not even close to the maximum issued for sheep and moose.

@JM77 has old orders from the late 70's-2024. Back in the late 70's there were individual units issuing 200+ tags for moose. Sheep were 600 total IIRC...hopefully he will chime in with the numbers.

Wow. I had no idea Sheep tag numbers had dropped that much.

 

[JM77]

That article is throwing numbers around that are pure nonsense.

Seems to be mixing total sheep tags in one sentence, then non resident quota in the next.

Total mess.

The number of sheep tags is declining, about 180 a year TOTAL.

Moose permits are close to 400 per year.

Also, 1998 was not even close to the maximum issued for sheep and moose.

@JM77 has old orders from the late 70's-2024. Back in the late 70's there were individual units issuing 200+ tags for moose. Sheep were 600 total IIRC...hopefully he will chime in with the numbers.

Also, 1998 was NOT the first year of points. If you look at last year's draw odds, 27 points was max. 2023-27 does not equal 1998 last I checked.

Poorly written article with crap numbers.

In 1976 there were 380 ram sheep tags and 2095 any or antlered moose tags offered.

 

[rjthehunter]

Montana sets the quotas after the draw deadline so NR occasionally apply for units with zero tags… that seems far worse IMHO.

WY sets quotas after the draw deadline also, don't they?

 

[BuzzH]

WY sets quotas after the draw deadline also, don't they?

No.