Points systems - when is it fraud

[rogerthat]

Wyoming’s lack of any nr random tags in the moose and sheep draw got me thinking, can a point system become fraud? I understand a system doesn’t guarantee anything but there system continues to sell nr points. Unless your a top point holder, your drawing dead, so what is Wyoming selling? If you are just starting out, what are you buying? If it’s nothing, could this be construed as fraudulent marketing? Could point holders have grounds for a class action lawsuit? Does Wyoming have an obligation to change the system or stop selling points? Curious as to what other people think especially some of you lawyers on here, paging @Elky Welky and @VikingsGuy

 

[cgasner1]

I’d say no because people go looking for points. No one made them spend that money.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Wyoming’s lack of any nr random tags in the moose and sheep draw got me thinking, can a point system become fraud? I understand a system doesn’t guarantee anything but there system continues to sell nr points. Unless your a top point holder, your drawing dead, so what is Wyoming selling? If you are just starting out, what are you buying? If it’s nothing, could this be construed as fraudulent marketing? Could point holders have grounds for a class action lawsuit? Does Wyoming have an obligation to change the system or stop selling points? Curious as to what other people think especially some of you lawyers on here, paging @Elky Welky and @VikingsGuy

First, sovereign immunity would have to be overcome - this requires a WY statute waiving immunity specifically for fraud tort claims. You would have to ask a WY lawyer if such immunity waiver has been enacted. If it was, then in general, fraud pivots on proof of a misrepresentation with an intent to deprive a person of something (such as money). If WY communications are all truthful/factually accurate it is hard to prove misrepresentation even if it is a suckers bet. So, while in the US it seems like everybody sues for everything, good luck on this one. Of course if you believe you have a real claim, please seek WY counsel to evaluate.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I’d say no because people go looking for points. No one made them spend that money.

Not sure that is the right test - Madoff's investors went looking for outsized gains, yet fraud nonetheless.

 

[rogerthat]

First, sovereign immunity would have to be overcome - this requires a WY statute waiving immunity specifically for fraud tort claims. You would have to ask a WY lawyer if such immunity waiver has been enacted. If it was, then in general, fraud pivots on proof of a misrepresentation with an intent to deprive a person of something (such as money). If WY communications are all truthful/factually accurate it is hard to prove misrepresentation even if it is a suckers bet. So, while in the US it seems like everybody sues for everything, good luck on this one. Of course if you believe you have a real claim, please seek WY counsel to evaluate.

Thanks for the response. Definitely not something I’m considering or even upset about but their system is broken. No plan to fix it and they are still selling preference points to people that don’t understand they are effectively buying nothing. If I sold raffle tickets for a “fundraiser” by titleing my raffle such but actually not conducting it and keeping the cash. That’s fraud. Similarities are there.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Thanks for the response. Definitely not something I’m considering or even upset about but their system is broken. No plan to fix it and they are still selling preference points to people that don’t understand they are effectively buying nothing. If I sold raffle tickets for a “fundraiser” by titleing my raffle such but actually not conducting it and keeping the cash. That’s fraud. Similarities are there.

First, again, absent specific waiver of immunity, govts can do all kinds of stuff the average person can't do. Second, the correct parallel is that you have sold lottery tickets over decades and new purchases can't win until the early ticket buyers drop out. As long as you are honest about it, it is hard to call it fraud (deceit is required). Just cuz some folks are willing to buy on an exceedingly low chance that deaths, increased wildlife numbers, or economic downturns will weed out folks ahead of them is not fraud - just very very low odds and dumb bets.

 

[Nick87]

They're buying on the chance that someday that tag might be there. Or that is the theory at least.

 

[rogerthat]

They're buying on the chance that someday that tag might be there. Or that is the theory at least.

It’s genius really.

 

[Stifler]

It's simply why I won't play for certain tags in my life. I don't mind the gamble, but I won't be able to stack enough points in some states in my life for coveted tags.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Montana sets the quotas after the draw deadline so NR occasionally apply for units with zero tags… that seems far worse IMHO.

 

[more_cowbell]

Wyoming’s lack of any nr random tags in the moose and sheep draw got me thinking, can a point system become fraud? I understand a system doesn’t guarantee anything but there system continues to sell nr points. Unless your a top point holder, your drawing dead, so what is Wyoming selling? If you are just starting out, what are you buying? If it’s nothing, could this be construed as fraudulent marketing? Could point holders have grounds for a class action lawsuit? Does Wyoming have an obligation to change the system or stop selling points? Curious as to what other people think especially some of you lawyers on here, paging @Elky Welky and @VikingsGuy

Not all that different than states promoting gambling to people, like including lottery tickets which have very low to nil odds of paying off.

They don't give much of a disclaimer to people other than in fine print at the bottom of the TV ad saying what the odds are, and to get help if you think you have a gambling problem. No warnings about don't buy these tickets because you won't win and besides your wife said buy milk and bread at the Minit mart, not scratchers and smokes.

On that note I'm about to waste some $$$ on F&W raffle tickets for a hunt I have a 99.999% chance of not winning.

 

[jrabq]

I'd say no,...more like bait and switch.

 

[Oak]

The guy that is one point behind being able to draw needs to continue to buy points until he can. Where would you draw the line and say “now it’s fraud” because there’s no chance?

 

[Derek44]

The guy that is one point behind being able to draw needs to continue to buy points until he can. Where would you draw the line and say “now it’s fraud” because there’s no chance?

When you’re ready to give up and haven’t drawn. . Everyone has their own definition I suppose. No fraud when the points rules are laid out up front and hell, the odds of success are updated annually.

 

[rogerthat]

The guy that is one point behind being able to draw needs to continue to buy points until he can. Where would you draw the line and say “now it’s fraud” because there’s no chance?

I’m not sure. I think it’s fairly safe to say without a change anyone who just started buying points last year or this year would never draw a tag but I get your point. Sheep could really end up on the mountain right?

 

[DFS]

Who can live the longest. Stay in shape. Buy points and at the ripe age of 97 the dream could come true.

 

[rogerthat]

Who can live the longest. Stay in shape. Buy points and at the ripe age of 97 the dream could come true.

That’s my plan. It’s faltering unfortunately

 

[BuzzH]

I think there may be a random moose tag in unit 25.

The GF got themselves in another bind with the supertags and trifecta as well.

The statute that created both, has language in there that states if a NR draws a moose, sheep, goat, or bison in a raffle, those tags SHALL be taken from the NR quota.

The GF had been ignoring that statute until this year. I sent the statute to the Director last year, as well as the commission. I started getting the run around a bit and the statute eventually went to LSO.

This year, if anyone noticed in chapter 44, if a raffle is drawn for m, s, g, b by a NR, they have to pick their area by March 15 so it can be deducted from the NR quota.

Sucks when someone points out that the GF has to follow statute.

All this means that the NR quotas are most likely to be even lower for m,s,g,b...

 

[rogerthat]

In my mind, selling nothing to the stupid is fraud. But in this case I guess it’s legalized fraud. I guess I can’t say with 100% certainty someone buying a point today for the first time would never draw a tag under the current system. Thinking 12 year old who plans to live a long life so I guess I have my answer

 

[HONEYBADGER]

Just don't put in, don't give them your money. Problem solved.