Point Systems

[ChrisC]

I haven't seen much discussed on here recently so i did a quick search and saw 500 results about point systems for each state. I was hoping for a better filter but figured there was no harm in starting a new thread. I was curious what everyone thought about having them. I just saw someone's thread about point creep and I was wondering if we would be better without them. Because of odds and point creep, why would anyone put in for some of these low odds hunts? Would it be better to have an equal shot across the board each year for everyone? Would that cause more people to pay an application fee because they feel they have a better shot, and possibly increase revenues to the states? Does it deter younger hunters, or those new to hunting?

 

[Cornell2012]

My 2 cents:

I would be deterred if I was just starting out. I'm fortunate that I have a good number of points in a handful of states, but I'm only fortunate that I got in near the beginning of the pyramid-like scheme that are point systems. The outlook is bleak at best for new hunters and their odds of drawing premier-level tags in states with deeply entrenched point systems.

 

[TheTone]

I only play the point game in a couple states because I got in late and am way behind the curve. I would definitely apply in more states if they didn't have point systems and I knew I was on equal footing with everyone else applying.

 

[jryoung]

In a nutshell.

 

[Lonesome_God_outdoors]

I'm so glad that WY doesn't have points for residents. I apply for moose and sheep but only think I have a chance in the random draw. With 1000+ people ahead of me I don't see how I can catch up short of people getting too old to be in the game

 

[brownbear932008]

Bottom line state run money rackets to fund game departments. Do I play yes why? I have no idea a few states I got in early. Others I got in late. How long will I play who knows it gets older every year that passes. I dropped four states in the last few years and I have not one ounce of regret doing so. Think I have the handful of states I'm truly interested in and species narrowed down for the long haul.

 

[Kiwi]

I just started the points game and buy points for tags that take a point or two.

Although trying to decide how to use my 2 CO deer points for a good archery hunt has me thinking I need another point or two.....and now it's starting to look seem like a pyramid scheme. Easy to get trapped I guess.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

The problem is more people want to hunt a particular game animal in a particular area.

Example:

Resident Wyoming deer 102

3,019 hunters applied for 140 tags ~ 4% Probability

A youth hunter could start now and never draw this tag.

A 100% preference point system could be implemented and it would take 21 years to cycle through everyone that originally started in the pool.

The issue with the latter is that in those 21 years people can move into the bottom floor and then the tag becomes a once in a lifetime affair; the cycles will become 22 years, 23 years, 24 years, etc.

I think a lot of times the term 'Point Creep' is used an excuse why I didn't draw, when if it was a lottery you probably wouldn't draw anyway.

I also think that suggesting a point system when you put in for units with poor draw odds as an excuse why you didn't draw in the last 10 years, is misguided.

The problem isn't the system, the problem is there are not enough permits for the amount of people that want to hunt the area.

A lottery system where people do not draw tags = people wanting a change in the system

A point system where people do not draw tags = people wanting a change in the system

 

[ChrisC]

I guess the question I have from your example is, if you were the youth hunter applying for unit 102, would you apply for a unit for the next 21 years knowing you won't have a chance of drawing for 21 years, or face steeper odds but know there is a chance every year you could draw.

I dont know my answer, but from a revenue standpoint, I'd guess you would get more than 3019 hunters applying for that unit each year if they knew they'd have a chance, albeit very small.

Most people who responded don't like the point system. If that is the popular feeling towards this system, and the potential for more revenue without points (I'm guessing), who is fighting to keep the system in place?

 

[Lonesome_God_outdoors]

People who have 5+ points are free ones advocating for it because they don't want them wasted. Once a system like points is implemented I think it will be very hard to go away. What do you say to the person who has 18 points?

 

[Kiwi]

Great post dude. My favourite film BTW.

 

[ChrisC]

People who have 5+ points are free ones advocating for it because they don't want them wasted. Once a system like points is implemented I think it will be very hard to go away. What do you say to the person who has 18 points?

I wonder if they could implement, for example, a 5 year plan where you had those five years to plan and use them. Certainly not ideal for those who have the points, but it has some flexibility.

My perspective is a bit biased...late twenties and just now getting into western hunting. No chance of drawing any of the highly coveted tags.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

I guess the question I have from your example is, if you were the youth hunter applying for unit 102, would you apply for a unit for the next 21 years knowing you won't have a chance of drawing for 21 years, or face steeper odds but know there is a chance every year you could draw.

I dont know my answer, but from a revenue standpoint, I'd guess you would get more than 3019 hunters applying for that unit each year if they knew they'd have a chance, albeit very small.

Most people who responded don't like the point system. If that is the popular feeling towards this system, and the potential for more revenue without points (I'm guessing), who is fighting to keep the system in place?

I wrote a longer response and it vanished....

I probably wouldn't have cared as a youth. I was too busy playing sports and would probably just shoot the first legal buck that I saw. It wouldn't have meant anything at that time. Now, that I am older it would mean a lot more; however, I can't bring myself to apply for it. I use 102 as an example to people who say Wyoming needs a points system for residents to point out how people still wouldn't draw 102. I also use it as an example of how simply going to a lottery will not solve all the unsuccessful draw woes.

It is a tough thing to judge which makes more a points system or a lottery system.

Colorado and Wyoming (NR) have a points system and charge the fees up front.

Arizona and Nevada charge a non refundable $150 or so license up front and have app fees and/or point fees.

Idaho charges the tag fee, app fee and a non refundable $150 up front.

Montana does something weird with their deer and elk apps, but it is up front and a points system

Utah has a points system $65 non refundable license up front and a $10 app fee

New Mexico has a refundable $65 dollar license and requires the tag fees to be floated.

It would be a really complicated thing to break down all of these to find out which makes the most money.

Another thing about how many people apply to a certain state is trophy quality and ease of harvest. If you don't have to leave your ATV to shoot a 20"+ 4x4, then people want to hunt that area. If you have an area that is famous for 35"+ mule deer, then people want to hunt there. So, it is really a tough thing to quantify.

The current system for residents is a lottery system in Wyoming. I do not know enough about the history of point systems to say whether that would go up or down with the implementation of a points system.

I think there is a bit of a disconnect between the people that frequent online forums and those that do not.

When I talk to people offline about this I typically get the same responses:

- I have put in for this unit for 10+ years and still haven't drawn it. (With antelope some of the units would be 1:4 and 1:5 draw odds, which makes a good case for one)

- Non residents get to hunt my unit, because they have a points system.

- If we had a points system, I would have drawn by now.

When I come online and read/talk about this I usually get the same responses:

- Point systems are a pyramid and Ponzi scheme

- You live in Wyoming if you are not killing 2 buck antelope, 2 deer, and 3 elk, it is your own fault.

- What about the youth or new hunters, do you not care?

- Point creep, is the reason I didn't draw - wish we had a lottery.

I take both viewpoints with a grain of salt, because I've drawn tags in both types of systems and part of the fun of the offseason is research.

As for who is fighting to keep this system in place, probably the people that actually attend the big game meetings (Ranchers, Guides, Special interests). It is has been a shock to me how few hunters go to these meetings and make their voices heard.

 

[Cornell2012]

I'd be more okay with point systems if there was a cap for how many points you could accrue. Anywhere from 7 to 10 seems like a reasonable upper end to me.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

Great post dude. My favourite film BTW.

I take comfort knowing he's out there taking it easy for the all us sinners.

 

[LopeHunter]

People who have 5+ points are free ones advocating for it because they don't want them wasted. Once a system like points is implemented I think it will be very hard to go away. What do you say to the person who has 18 points?

I say, hey you lucky duck, you had 18 bites at the apple to draw a tag before New Guy got his first bite. That is your "loyalty" reward. Not a scam that screws over everyone who starts after you.

 

[NoWiser]

Coming from MN, and not having a single family member that hunted out west, I didn't even know what a preference point was until I was almost 30 years old. By that time I realized I was screwed. My plan now is just to accumulate enough points to hunt low tier units every once in awhile. I'd gladly give every last one up (including my newly acquired AZ hunter ed point) to go to a random lottery.

About the only people point systems work for are those who got in on or near the ground floor, or for kids whose folks also play the system and can afford to start them out the very first year they are eligible to buy points. They may be able to hunt the great units before they are using a walker to get around.

Now even the low tier units and general tags are getting hard to draw because people realize it's a waste of time to set their sights on the mid-upper tiers.

 

[Keeptrying]

SD is a true point system. For the most part each point counts as a ticket in the draw.
ETA: NOT A TRUE POINT SYSTEM, THEY CALL IT A WEIGHTED LOTTERY, OTHERS CALL IT A BONUS SYSTEM.
As an example: Black Hills Elk H2A21(I think), a bull elk tag in the largest most elk dense unit, had an individual with no PP this year draw the tag. I believe 6 people with over 20 PP failed to draw the tag. Lots of anger. The problem is that if they started at the top and moved down the list no new person would ever draw the tag. They block it up, over ten, over two, zero points, but in the end it really is luck of the draw.

For me the PP system makes people be involved and have some skin in the game. If all you had to do was apply and have equal odds the draw odds would be ridiculous, and they are already skewed toward ridiculous. Navigating the system and figuring out what gets me what I want is part of the journey.

For us we will use our points next year to get cow tags which will be our way of hunting elk without spending all the time and money required to hunt out of state. By the time we cycle through two seasons of archery and rifle cow hunts we will probably have some skills.

 

[ChrisC]

SD is a true point system.

I think I need some clarification, as my only experience was will Wyoming Antelope this year. The way I under stood it was that they would give all the available tags to those with highest points applying for that unit. once they went through the highest total, say 7, if they had any left they would give them to all the pointholders with 6. You continue down until you run out of tags.

Are there some states that do it this way, and others are more of a random draw, with higher point holders having more names in the hat but everyone having a chance?

 

[TheDudeAbides]

Now even the low tier units and general tags are getting hard to draw because people realize it's a waste of time to set their sights on the mid-upper tiers.

And more people are figuring out it is affordable and doable to hunt out west.

In 2010 Wyoming General Elk (75/25)

Preference Point Special 1053 tags allocated with 1096 people drew with 0 points or greater.

Preference Point Regular 1719 people applying for 1727 people drew with 1 point or greater.

Random draw Special 351 tags were offered and 43 first choice and 126 second choice drew (182 leftovers)

Random draw Regular 572 tags were offered and 2331 first choice applicants.

Special draw 1139 First Choice Applicants.

Random draw 4050 First Choice Applicants

In 2017

Preference Point Special 1177 tags were allocated and 1301 people applied with 1 points or greater.

Preference Point Regular 1764 tags were allocated and 2387 people applied with 2 points or greater.

Random Special 392 tags were allocated and 1327 first choice applicants.

Random Regular 588 tags were allocated and 4069 first choice applicants.

Special 2628 First Choice Applicants

Regular 6456 First Choice Applicants.

In seven years for General elk there have been an increase 3,895 applicants (2406 Regular and 1489 Special)

There is a little bit of people that are jumping ship, but a vast majority of people drawing are doing so with 2/3 points or less.

I guess my point is that there is only a limited number of tags and more people are applying for those tags now than ever before.