Point Systems

[Sask hunter]

How effective are the systems that's are % of tags go to points and % of tags are random

 

[Flatrock]

A lottery system where people do not draw tags = people wanting a change in the system

A point system where people do not draw tags = people wanting a change in the system

Ha, that is absolutely the truth.

I don't mind the point systems. People are so overly obsessed with glory tags that it leaves a plethora of tags to be drawn with 1-5 points. I mean look at Colorado. It has massive opportunity in the 1-3 point units for elk and yet everyone bitches because it takes 26 points to draw a glory tag like early rifle unit 2. If you can't be happy unless you have that tag, well then I feel sorry for you.

Also, I like Wyoming's system. Have the point system but also gives everyone a chance for a few random tags.

 

[vanish]

SD is a true point system.

That's not a preference point system, that's a bonus point system.

A preference point system means only those with the most points will draw.

A bonus point system means more chances to draw if you have more points.

I think I need some clarification, as my only experience was will Wyoming Antelope this year. The way I under stood it was that they would give all the available tags to those with highest points applying for that unit. once they went through the highest total, say 7, if they had any left they would give them to all the pointholders with 6. You continue down until you run out of tags.

Are there some states that do it this way, and others are more of a random draw, with higher point holders having more names in the hat but everyone having a chance?

You are correct. See my above comments. Preference vs Bonus.

Wyoming makes it even more complicated, as a % of the tags are preference points, and a smaller % are completely random draw (not to mention special vs regular)

 

[ChrisC]

Vanish - very helpful with bonus vs. preference., thank you. I have been incorrectly using those terms interchangeably

 

[LopeHunter]

SD is a true point system. For the most part each point counts as a ticket in the draw.

As an example: Black Hills Elk H2A21(I think), a bull elk tag in the largest most elk dense unit, had an individual with no PP this year draw the tag. I believe 6 people with over 20 PP failed to draw the tag. Lots of anger. The problem is that if they started at the top and moved down the list no new person would ever draw the tag. They block it up, over ten, over two, zero points, but in the end it really is luck of the draw.

For me the PP system makes people be involved and have some skin in the game. If all you had to do was apply and have equal odds the draw odds would be ridiculous, and they are already skewed toward ridiculous. Navigating the system and figuring out what gets me what I want is part of the journey.

For us we will use our points next year to get cow tags which will be our way of hunting elk without spending all the time and money required to hunt out of state. By the time we cycle through two seasons of archery and rifle cow hunts we will probably have some skills.

I looked into applying for SD bison as a NR. Though the point scam system is only a couple of years old, will take around 12 years for me to rise to Max point pool and all tags to NR go to highest point holders. So, the SD system will not be a value proposition for me and I have the choice to not apply which I will exercise. Soon, will take over 20 years for a new entrant NR to have any chance to draw a bison tag in SD. In 10 years, will take over 30 to draw if the CO Deer and WY Sheep scam systems are a reliable indicator and they most likely are a reasonable glimpse into the future of SD's bison draw system.

Only so many tags and when demand greatly exceeds tags then states are tempted to respond to all the complaints by implementing a point scam system. Point systems do not create more tags. They merely create a discriminatory hurdle for anyone not currently participating in the draw. Like your 5 year old kid or grandkid. Or any kid merely 2 years too young too apply for SD bison as the point system launched. They went from having an equal chance in their first year of applying to have 0% chance for the next 5-20 years. Is two years of loyalty really worth screwing over a kid for a decade or more of draws who starts merely 2 years after you? Does not seem fair to me but I guess grab what we can and to heck with everyone else.

 

[Keeptrying]

Vanish - very helpful with bonus vs. preference., thank you. I have been incorrectly using those terms interchangeably

Me too. I corrected my initial post to reflect that. SD calls it a "Weighted lottery".

Plenty of opportunity, but the system is complicated because it is different for various areas and species. Really surprising to me how many people apply for tags they can't possibly draw, or those who claim they will draw for sure. Very few things in the SD draw are a sure thing. At least not in regards to high value bull and buck tags.

 

[NoWiser]

I looked into applying for SD bison as a NR. Though the point scam system is only a couple of years old, will take around 12 years for me to rise to Max point pool and all tags to NR go to highest point holders. So, the SD system will not be a value proposition for me and I have the choice to not apply which I will exercise. Soon, will take over 20 years for a new entrant NR to have any chance to draw a bison tag in SD. In 10 years, will take over 30 to draw if the CO Deer and WY Sheep scam systems are a reliable indicator and they most likely are a reasonable glimpse into the future of SD's bison draw system.

Funny you mention that, LopeHunter. My buddy and I were all set to get in the game for SD bison. Before we got points I did a bit of math and realized that we would not draw within a decade. We talked and decided our money would be best spent elsewhere. If they used bonus points or a random draw we probably would give it a shot. No way I'm going to invest myself into a system where it's impossible for me to draw in less than 10 years. A lot can happen in 10 years. We decided to do an extra turkey hunt with each other every few springs. We'd rather hunt together than dream about hunting together.

 

[1_pointer]

LopeHunter and NoWiser- I'm guessing you guys are talking about bull tags? I drew a cow tag with a handful of points...

I dislike any and all point systems. However, I participate in a bunch of states with them as that's the only way to a chance to draw the tags. I much prefer Idaho's system and IMO is the only "fair" way to do it. NRs are in a catch 22 as there's only 1 state in which we really get a say. The other 49 the residents elect the officials who give us the rules to play by.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

LopeHunter and NoWiser- I'm guessing you guys are talking about bull tags? I drew a cow tag with a handful of points...

I dislike any and all point systems. However, I participate in a bunch of states with them as that's the only way to a chance to draw the tags. I much prefer Idaho's system and IMO is the only "fair" way to do it. NRs are in a catch 22 as there's only 1 state in which we really get a say. The other 49 the residents elect the officials who give us the rules to play by.

As a NR of Idaho. If had the same Non Resident Tag Allocations as Wyoming or Colorado, it would be the best. An up to 10% competing with residents isn't close to the best option for non residents.

 

[NoWiser]

LopeHunter and NoWiser- I'm guessing you guys are talking about bull tags? I drew a cow tag with a handful of points...

I'm talking cow tags. I'm sure you drew with few points but we were 1-2 years late discovering the hunt and that cost us a decade with the people who slipped in front of us. Hence the problem with point systems. In 3 more years you'll be looking at 20 years to draw it.

 

[1_pointer]

Crazy how popular it's gotten then as I drew in 2015 (hunted in 2016). Wonder if the change to a Jan/Feb season from the Oct/Nov timeframe increased folks applying?

Now for my sob story, I got in on the ground floor in WY with points for deer, but forgot to buy a point one year. Now I'm max-1...

 

[icebreaker12]

IMHO the best method is the bonus point system. Each "point" is worth another ticket in the drawing. Everybody has a chance every year, but clearly better chances the more you have.

I haven't thought enough about it, but the bonus point squared might be even a bit better.

 

[NoWiser]

I haven't thought enough about it, but the bonus point squared might be even a bit better.

Look at Nevada. The bonus point squared is a terrible system and is why I won't apply in that state. Getting in late, my odds will go DOWN for the first 10-15 years I accumulate points. Given they are <1% to start for most units, it's not a wise place for me to spend my money.

I do agree with your initial statement, though. If you NEED a point system, a straight bonus point system is best. I think a completely random draw trumps all, though.

 

[Zim]

I got in the point game heavy duty 20 years ago and have drawn some of the most primo tags during that time. But in that time I've learned the ROI isn't really worth it in most cases. Don't get me wrong I've had some slammer hunts, it's just the value is often not worth the wait once you go so far. I've had some of my best hunts in 3-5 point units, including a 330" elk in a low demand NM unit. But these days the writing is on the wall for high point holders. We are a target for unscrupulous point cheapening in every state point system. So in the last couple years I changed my application strategy to burn points where I anticipate a point system dumpster fire. I can see now these systems are long term houses of cards and I have exit strategies in every one of them. Worked out great this year burning 21 points for 4 tags. Got rid of my biggest liability, AZ elk. Next will come my Colorado elk & deer points which I believe are vulnerable. And I want out of Oregons system completely so those 20 elk/deer/lope gotta go. Then there's Utah deer yuck. DP will never let me cash those. I'm his cash cow.

 

[Zim]

Look at Nevada. The bonus point squared is a terrible system and is why I won't apply in that state. Getting in late, my odds will go DOWN for the first 10-15 years I accumulate points. Given they are <1% to start for most units, it's not a wise place for me to spend my money.

I do agree with your initial statement, though. If you NEED a point system, a straight bonus point system is best. I think a completely random draw trumps all, though.

I agree Nevada is a rough one. I got 20 points for everything but I cannot lower my goals much more than they are, and can't cash them since there's no preference system. Just pick low/med units and hope to burn points before their house of cards collapses, and it will sooner or later. For newbies their incentive to jump in from the ground floor drops exponentially every year! I would never even consider it today. Much better ROI elsewhere. Same for moose/sheep in WY.

 

[Gr8bawana]

By all means do not buy into those pyramid schemes of point systems. Especially you newer hunters. Go hunting only where you can buy OTC tags but you won't be hunting very much.
Point systems are the reality of way more demand than there are tags available.
Point systems are not perfect by any means but that is the system most western states use. No one is forcing hunters to apply in these states so if you don't like it don't apply. If you want to hunt these states you must buy into the system.

 

[Flatland Crusoe]

Here is my take on points. Right now I'm 5 years in after starting to accumulate points initially just for mid grade antelope units in Wyoming. We wanted to have 2 points the first year we planned to go out there. We got burned by a drop in tags/population/point creep but went on leftover tags for a couple of years, had great hunts and now I'm wondering why I have 5 PP's on WY antelope.

I'm now on my 4th year going out west to hunt and its the first year I've actually burned points, but I've had a great series of experiences on antelope, deer and elk leftover tags. I now have a back pocket full of information on places I can have good hunts on 2nd/3rd choice/leftover tags regardless of what limited entry hunts I draw. I applied across 5 states and 7 draws before I drew an elk tag which was very frustrating, but also a good lesson draws. I didn't draw where I had the points, but rather where I had dumb luck on 1 point.

To summarize you should be accumulating points strategically on hunts you can currently pull in 5 years, but expect it to take 10 years to draw those hunts. Hunt all the days you have vacation and money to pull off regardless of perceived tag quality.

 

[3855WIN]

As a non resident to all Western states, I hear the cry, "keep it public". Then I see many states with systems set up where it is difficult for me to get to hunt on this public land. For my federal tax dollars, I want more access to quality public land.

 

[1_pointer]

As a non resident to all Western states, I hear the cry, "keep it public". Then I see many states with systems set up where it is difficult for me to get to hunt on this public land. For my federal tax dollars, I want more access to quality public land.

Access to public land and the opportunity to hunt it are two very separate and very different topics. Using the search function on this website will turn up more posts with more solid info on those two subjects than you can imagine. I consider myself fairly well versed on the differences and also understand your sentiment. It's one I think western states, especially western focused sporting groups, probably need to give a bit more consideration to.

 

[LCH]

I really don't think a new hunter can avoid jumping into the point systems in at least a couple states if you want to have a decent hunt each year. I just started a few years ago, only in the Colorado and Wyoming systems, and have already had several"good" hunts in these states. You just have to know that odds are you will never draw what the top point-holders are going after now. Also know that the 3 point pronghorn unit you want to hunt may take 6 points by the time you draw it. A regional deer tag in Wyoming that you bought as a leftover last year may take 2-3 points to draw in another 3-4 years.

As more people aquire points, each individual point has less value to it. Point creep sucks, but what is the alternative to participating? Hunting OTC every year? What about when those OTC options go away, like so many others have?

My personal strategy is to apply in the random draw states, and aquire points in just a couple other states for hunts that I can get in just a few years. Get in, hunt in a couple years, get out. Repeat.