Pack out service for hire? SW Montana

[Addicting]

Anyone know anyone that offers a pack service for hire around the 327 unit in sw montana

I just wanted to repost the OP’s question to get his thread for help back on track.

I do not know of anyone besides maybe S&W Outfitters. He has a bigger operation and has the resources to possibly help.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

What is a commercial use or activity?
A commercial use or activity on NFS land occurs when
An applicant intends to charge an entry or participation fee, or
The primary purpose is the sale of a good or service, regardless of the intent to produce a profit.

I'd guess that they put the last part of that sentence regarding profit in there so they wouldn't have to produce any evidence to that effect if they found an unpermitted person operating on NFS land and had to go to court.

 

[MTlionchaser]

When $$ becomes involved, making it a commercial activity, it does require a permit.

I’m sorry, I stand corrected as I worded my statement wrong. They do not have to be a lisc guide or outfitter to pack meat. Yes they do need a permit to operate in the forest service if they are charging for it. Just like Commerical mushroom pickers.

 

[JLS]

I’m sorry, I stand corrected as I worded my statement wrong. They do not have to be a lisc guide or outfitter to pack meat. Yes they do need a permit to operate in the forest service if they are charging for it. Just like Commerical mushroom pickers.

In the state of Montana they DO have to be a licensed outfitter or guide to pack animals out if they are doing so for compensation.

 

[BigHornRam]

In the state of Montana they DO have to be a licensed outfitter or guide to pack animals out if they are doing so for compensation.

One time when I was hunting the Bob early rifle, a couple guys from Oregon had a bull down, it was really hot, and they were in over their head. A couple Forest Service guys came riding down the trail checking camps for proper bear aware regulations. They offered the FS guys $200 to pack out the elk.. True story.

 

[MTlionchaser]

In the state of Montana they DO have to be a licensed outfitter or guide to pack animals out if they are doing so for compensation.

Could you show me where it states this. I’m part of the outfitting and guide world. All that’s required is a commercial use permit. I’m 99.9% sure they do not have to be guides or lisc outfitters. But I have been wrong before and would love to see where it says they do. Ultimately a guy packing meat has not provided anything more than a transport service. He isn’t hunting with them, hasn’t taken them out and showed them anything.

 

[JLS]

(10) "Outfitter" means any person, except a person providing services on real property that the person owns for the primary pursuit of bona fide agricultural interests, who for consideration provides any saddle or pack animal, facilities, camping equipment, vehicle, watercraft, or other conveyance, or personal service for any person to hunt, trap, capture, take, kill, or pursue any game, including fish, and who accompanies that person, either part or all of the way, on an expedition for any of these purposes or supervises a licensed guide or outfitter's assistant in accompanying that person.

Title 37 MCA

 

[JLS]

Could you show me where it states this. I’m part of the outfitting and guide world. All that’s required is a commercial use permit. I’m 99.9% sure they do not have to be guides or lisc outfitters. But I have been wrong before and would love to see where it says they do. Ultimately a guy packing meat has not provided anything more than a transport service. He isn’t hunting with them, hasn’t taken them out and showed them anything.

Retrieval is typically considered part of the hunt.

 

[RobG]

Taken literally the law would outlaw renting a car to go fishing, but 37-47-31 appears to clarify that "outfitting" requires in-field assistance.

 

[MTlionchaser]

Taken literally the law would outlaw renting a car to go fishing, but 37-47-31 appears to clarify that "outfitting" requires in-field assistance.

10) "Outfitter" means any person, except a person providing services on real property that the person owns for the primary pursuit of bona fide agricultural interests, who for consideration provides any saddle or pack animal, facilities, camping equipment, vehicle, watercraft, or other conveyance, or personal service for any person to hunt, trap, capture, take, kill, or pursue any game, including fish, and who accompanies that person, either part or all of the way, on an expedition for any of these purposes or supervises a licensed guide or outfitter's assistant in accompanying that person.


So in the outfitters definition it clearly states everything before and when the animal is killed. It doesn’t say anything about retrieval in their definition. I’m not trying to argue and MTs laws are a lot up for interpretation. I have spoke with a few outfitters that have been doing this for many years and they say it is completely legal as long as they are permitted by the forest service.

 

[RobG]

MTlionchaser - I read that too. Take a look at this link: https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0370/chapter_0470/part_0030/section_0130/0370-0470-0030-0130.html especially "[FONT=&quot](1) Nothing in this chapter prohibits the furnishing of shuttle or rental services as long as those services do not include in-field assistance to a customer."[/FONT]

That suggests that a key aspect of the outfitter definition is "in-field assistance to a customer," and thus hiring a non-outfitter to assist you in bringing out an elk could fall under the category of illegal outfitting. I don't know how much lee-way, if any, FWP allows in this.

 

[RobG]

I just wanted to repost the OP’s question to get his thread for help back on track.

I do not know of anyone besides maybe S&W Outfitters. He has a bigger operation and has the resources to possibly help.

Also on topic.... be aware the Sheep Station property is closed to hunting unless you have an outfitter even though it is public land.

 

[PrairieHunter]

So when the Born and Raised guys gave the dudes $100 to borrow their rented horses for the day, they would've been in game violation? Rinella just covered illegal bartering, and I think this sort of thing falls under the grey area there as well. If I'm at work and ask my coworker if they'd like to trade some antelope for walleye and we agree, theoretically we are breaking the law. Does that keep me up at night, knowing that I'm now a villainous law-breaker? Only if I haven't eaten enough antelope.

Interesting perspective. I've always thought one of the weird ones was what parts you can and can't sell off an animal. I remember some asian guy got in trouble for if I remember correctly gal bladders. So you can buy/sell horns, hides, teeth, hooves, skulls, etc but you better not sell a gall bladder as that would be illegal.

As far as this I guess it just depends how you wanted to look at it. If you really want to get technical hiring a helicopter service to haul you, your hunting gear, and your game out of an area might be considered illegal outfitting as well.

So for you guys who have a better understanding of this.

If hiring a horse owner to transport game for a paying customer is illegal outfitting would paying a helicopter service to transport game be illegal outfitting as well?

 

[Dan O]

Profit is not a criteria.
https://www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/special_com_uses.shtml#sp-com-b

Reading the entire statue I don't believe it is applicable to the subject of hauling a game animal out for a friend and asking for replacing the fuel used to get there and back home again.

 

[flyingvmt]

JLS....please find me a list of guys with horses willing to sit at trailheads and wait for "business" opportunities
for profit. FFS, I can't even entice outfitters that are licensed up to your standards to return my call for pack out quotes....much less is there a plethora of guys wanting to #*^@#* up everyones hunting areas by illegally packing game out for people.

 

[JLS]

JLS....please find me a list of guys with horses willing to sit at trailheads and wait for "business" opportunities
for profit. FFS, I can't even entice outfitters that are licensed up to your standards to return my call for pack out quotes....much less is there a plethora of guys wanting to #*^@#* up everyones hunting areas by illegally packing game out for people.

Find your own list. If you do not like it, petition your legislators to change it.

 

[flyingvmt]

Find your own list. If you do not like it, petition your legislators to change it.

lmfao.

never said I did or did not like it. I am just not paranoid af like you seem to be regarding people "messing up my area"

 

[JLS]

lmfao.

never said I did or did not like it. I am just not paranoid af like you seem to be regarding people "messing up my area"

I’m not paranoid, but I’m always not naive. If you don’t think a bootleg outfitter can impact a resource you’re kidding yourself.

 

[bushman13]

JLS....please find me a list of guys with horses willing to sit at trailheads and wait for "business" opportunities
for profit. FFS, I can't even entice outfitters that are licensed up to your standards to return my call for pack out quotes....much less is there a plethora of guys wanting to #*^@#* up everyones hunting areas by illegally packing game out for people.

My experience as well. I found 3 outfitters in my unit "offering" pack in and pack out services. In reality they wanted nothing to do with me unless I bought the platinum package.

 

[RobG]

Topics not to bring up at a campfire with Jason.
1) Gyppo game retrievers. Check.