Outfitter leased lands in Montana FYI

[Eric Albus]

pierre, i would expect that you would tell them to go elsewhere anyway. I guess as someone suggested, we should have run this past some sportsmen's group for a blessing and explained it. Once looked at in the light it is not nearly as scary as you and others are painting it.

Quentin may know something about managment, in theory,...if he is so worried about managment why not ask him to actually manage deer/elk in general season areas...oh, that's right, "the people" took the survey, and "survey says" we don't want managment..."we want to see the Dept. sell as many tags as possible, and have a poor quality hunting experience every year".... Let me write up the survey, will guarantee you a different result....FWP has loaded all their survey's to get the answers they want.

Spook, the mouse hunt will set you back a 6 pack we are getting some big grain fed ones...grasshoppers and mosquitoes are on the house.

 

[Pierre]

Eric,
I don't know if I understand all that. What I can tell you is that we have very capable folks in the Dept. Yes, trained biologists. They have the respect of most of us. We lobbied hard for Hagener and got him. We most certainly trust science based management over MOGA's efforts to manage nothing but lining their pockets and whining for more favors.
I have felt that if you give folks a chance, they may surprise you in the depth of their knowledge and convictions. There is a wealth of knowledge in the FWP and you are a fool to bad mouth them. I assume you have a MS in wildlife management?
I have been in this game a long time. I am a landowner who has never charged anyone a dime for hunting or access. I have been traveling the Bob etc. since the 60's. I know and respect our public land outfitters. I have often sent friends, relatives, and acquaintances to them. I certainly will not be advising anyone to book in Montana if this bill passes, cut and dried! You reap what you sow.

 

[Pierre]

The following are the average percent of complaints / number of licenses for all 36 boards overseen by the department of Labor and Industry vs just Board of Outfitters

2008 all 36 boards averaged = 1.6% complaints
Board of Outfitters = 6 %


2009 All 36 boards = 1.7%
Board of outfitters = 5.6%


2010 All 36 boards = 1.9%
Board of Outfitters = 7.8%


2008 Outfitters had 3.75 times more complaints than the average of all 36 boards.
2009 Outfitters had 3.29
2010 Outfitters had 4.1

It is safe to say for these 3 years the outfitters had more than 3 or 4 times as many complaints as the average board.

 

[rmyoung1]

I will be supporting any effort to reduce that 10% because MOGA and their stooge Mac can't leave a fair deal alone.....I personally like a figure less than 5%.

I think you gotta be careful when you go there. You start smelling of the same self-servitude that you're criticizing MOGA for having. Nonresidents are already capped at a 10% maximum and not all nonresidents book with outfitters, obviously. You'd be punishing a lot of innocent hunters that want to hunt Montana on their own or with friends & family. That's not pro-hunter either.

 

[Eric Albus]

great point rmyoung...

pierre...there is no doubt that there are more complaints against outfitters, some legit complaints, some not so legit. There are still a few "scam artists" out there, selling "armed horseback rides".

As to FWP managing, yes, as evidenced by our Gov's sheep tag, $480k...all I can say is Great Job FWP. Now, let's look at what the Gov's deer tag brought last year(have not heard about this year). $9k, that should be, as a biologist told my brother, "a slap in the face", Utah's Gov deer tag brought $240k this year...several other western states brought in $125-200k for their Gov's Deer Tag....what is the difference? Oh, those other states manage, that's right. How about elk...same story.....Montana does not manage for quality, FWP manages socially and financially in general season elk/deer areas....

Do I have a degree in wildlife biology? No, but I have read and studied a lot(and stayed in a holiday express, once). I have learned a little along the way, some the hard way...especially when it comes to reproductive capabilities of whitetailed deer on the Milk River...they are really something. I hoping that I can develop a working relationship w/ the new Reg. 6 guy. It would be nice to be able to manage the harvest a little more effectively. We did try, but to little to late...and by my best accounting we allowed the public to harvest around 800 deer over 2 years off our leases...all for no charge...but then winter 2010 hit, followed by EHD. I cancelled over 50 hunts on the Milk for fall of '11(FWP continued to sell antlerless license)......so let's switch gears, to mule deer. I have the priviledge of hunting some nice ranches for mule deer in southern Mt. I have maintained an age average of nearly 6.5 on the mule deer we harvest ....numbers are low, mainly on account of predation by coyotes.... We maintain a buck:doe ratio of roughly 4:10, tell me what I am doing wrong here?
I readily admit where I went wrong w/ the whitetail, and hope to not repeat the same mistake over again....this will take a co-operative effort, not only on my and the landowner's behalf, but of Reg. 6 FWP as well.

 

[1_pointer]

IMO, you might want to think of a better comparison than UT when it comes to deer herds. For the most part, the UT DWR does NOT manage for quality when it comes to deer. Deer is the 'opportunity' hunt in UT and in an effort to keep some deer on the mountain they've had to shorten to the rifle season to 5 days. Similarly, look at how few LE deer units there are in UT compared to elk. IMO that's pretty telling in regards to managing for quality...

 

[Eric Albus]

conceded 1pointer....Ut is not a great comparison...Az, Nv, Wy, Co. are much better examples...whose Gov tag mule deer sold for over 120-240k each....

Test time, give me the poster child for mule deer managment? What state/province is doing the best job, in any of your opinions???

 

[mtlion]

conceded 1pointer....Ut is not a great comparison...Az, Nv, Wy, Co. are much better examples...whose Gov tag mule deer sold for over 120-240k each....

Test time, give me the poster child for mule deer managment? What state/province is doing the best job, in any of your opinions???

Eric you are so far out of touch.

You seem to think management = big horns. Texas is awful big, maybe a move is in order?

 

[1_pointer]

conceded 1pointer....Ut is not a great comparison...Az, Nv, Wy, Co. are much better examples...whose Gov tag mule deer sold for over 120-240k each....

Test time, give me the poster child for mule deer managment? What state/province is doing the best job, in any of your opinions???

One first has to define what the desired result is for mule deer. Is it overall numbers? Is it large bucks? And for either, in comparison to what? In that way only could you argue who's doing the "best job".

Mule deer will never again be like they were 40-60yrs ago, for a variety of reasons and many which aren't wholly understood. I think one could argue that period was an anomaly. That said, I think both Montana and Idaho offer a very good mix of trophy potential and opportunity for mule deer. Just look at the number of success photos posted on this site in a given year. Lots of bucks killed in MT and many of them are what I would consider trophy sized. I plan on hunting them in each state in the next few years. Sure, other states may garner more money for governors tags, but none of the states offer anywhere near the opportunity for mule deer.

 

[Pierre]

rmyoung, you are only correct as long as both parties hold the line. If they end around sportsmen for a bigger share, it is fair game to go both ways. If outfitting is to be unlimited in its scope, we are in trouble.
Eric, I do have a degree in wildlife biology. Doesn't make things any easier to figure out from the outside. Research is the answer. There are things happening with mule deer all over the west that we just don't understand. They have never been given due credit for the specialists that they really are. Managing just for horns is never enough. Managing just on your private lands is not enough.

 

[Pierre]

rmyoung, there are several bills by MOGA increasing the NR % on permits. Some up to 15% some up to 35%. The point being, 10% has been a long accepted standard for sharing with NR. If you sneak to the legislature to upset the cart, chit can fall either direction.

 

[Pierre]

"There are other things much more important than game laws; but it
will be a great mistake to imagine because until recently in Europe
game laws have been administered in the selfish interest of one class
and against the interest of the people as a whole, that here in this
country, and under our institutions, they would not be beneficial to
all our people. Far from game laws being in the interests of the few,
they are emphatically in the interest of the many."
-- Theodore Roosevelt, THE DEER FAMILY, 1902