Our elected always hard at work!

[Deleted member 28227]

Derogatory terms for races and ethnicities should go. The N word referred to in the article is negro. Though, I have caught the worse N word as a variant place names in the GNIS. I have tracked the lineage of particular place names, from the worst N word to the next N word, to now, black.

Squaw, N word, etc - they probably shouldn't be toponyms on the map.

That said, I have mixed feelings about a lot of the current push to change place-names. In fact I'm opposed to it in many instances. From the text of the Bill: Basically to change names that"

"honor of individuals who held racially repugnant views, committed atrocities against Native Americans, or supported or effectuated discriminatory policies.....to recognize individuals who carried out injustices against racial minorities...."
"...contains a sexual slur"
"..... American place names should be equitable and just, honor America’s cultural diversity, and advance dignity for all Americans"

The former criteria could be applied to essentially anyone. It's arbitrary, and a slippery slope, and starts at prehistory and certainly to the writers of the bill, delusionally ends in contemporary times. I don't even know what the latter means. Place names are not for "advancing dignity". Flat out, that's never been what they are for.

I want Roosevelt County, even though Teddy said some offputting things at times. I want all 23 Gobblers Knobs in America. I want the Suicide Cabin in the Southern Boulder Mountains, even though suicide is certainly offensive. I want the Devils Fence, even though the devil is arguably a religious name and certainly inequitable. And like Ben Lamb, I want Bloody Dick Peak to stay as it is and I'll fight to the death for it. I want kids to cringe and wonder at place names. You won't find anyone who thinks more that our place names are often boring, poor at description, and unnecessarily duplicative than me.

Folks may disagree, but this woke stuff has a tendency for scope creep, and though it may start with getting rid of a confederate general here or there, it will certainly head toward getting rid of Lincoln, Montana - due to Abe's actions toward minorities at the time, and renaming the Pioneers, because everyone knows Pioneers are the sacred cow of Manifest Destiny and all it's evils.And on and on it goes. This bill should get rid of place names derogatory toward ethnicities and races, and that's it. The rest is just 21st century puritanism.

A nerfed world has little character.

All that said, I would be interested to look at the thousand or so place names that have been flagged. Can't find it anywhere.

Text - H.R.8455 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Reconciliation in Place Names Act

Text for H.R.8455 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Reconciliation in Place Names Act

www.congress.gov

Great response!

Honestly, I just kinda wish reasonable people could have just made changes here and there over the years and made this a non-issue.

 

[Nameless Range]

Great response!

Honestly, I just kinda wish reasonable people could have just made changes here and there over the years and made this a non-issue.

The thing is, place names are changed all the time. Usually for misspellings, or things like that, but often to get rid of slurs out there. It is done judiciously by residents of the area, requires support from local and state government in conjunction with the Board of Geographic Names, and happens often dink and dunk at a time.

Montana Geographic Names Advisor - Home

mslservices.mt.gov

 

[Lilhowie83]

No matter what they do, Beaver Dick Park will never go by another name in my house.

My wife always gets mad at me when I talk about Beaver Dick, "fur trading" and the three Tetons, or three breasts.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

The thing is, place names are changed all the time. Usually for misspellings, or things like that, but often to get rid of slurs out there. It is done judiciously by residents of the area, requires support from local and state government in conjunction with the Board of Geographic Names, and happens often dink and dunk at a time.

Montana Geographic Names Advisor - Home

mslservices.mt.gov

How do you feel about that process?

 

[The Hedgehog]

Dick Randall Point?

 

[Nameless Range]

@wllm1313 , I guess I have never thought about its pros and cons, though I will say it seems a pretty democratized process.

-Montanan wants to change a name, or name something unnamed for that matter, and writes a proposal and sends it in to the State Steward of Geographic Names
-State receives it, and solicits advice from the county commissioners of that place, numerous state agencies to see how it would affect their business (Water rights at the DNRC, HD boundaries FWP, etc), as well as the public.
-They consolidate and consider the input from everyone, and then forward it to the Bureau of Geographic Names who are the final arbiters.

I suppose it is tedious. That said, I have taken part in it and felt my voice was heard. FWIW.

My default is to very conservative about changing a place name. I think they may matter more than we think.

 

[noharleyyet]

Pro tip, if you want to Google Bloody Dick Peak, make sure you include the word peak otherwise its a bit weird.

Damn, redirected to an impossibly cheap pair of Swaro EL thread.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

@wllm1313 , I guess I have never thought about its pros and cons, though I will say it seems a pretty democratized process.

-Montanan wants to change a name, or name something unnamed for that matter, and writes a proposal and sends it in to the State Steward of Geographic Names
-State receives it, and solicits advice from the county commissioners of that place, numerous state agencies to see how it would affect their business (Water rights at the DNRC, HD boundaries FWP, etc), as well as the public.
-They consolidate and consider the input from everyone, and then forward it to the Bureau of Geographic Names who are the final arbiters.

I suppose it is tedious. That said, I have taken part in it and felt my voice was heard. FWIW.

My default is to very conservative about changing a place name. I think they may matter more than we think.

I think this is actually super interesting coming from someone with the handle “nameless range”!! Right!?? Have you had anything named after your suggestion?! That’s cool as hell, after the tedious process, to say you felt your voice was heard..

 

[SAJ-99]

Derogatory terms for races and ethnicities should go. The N word referred to in the article is negro. Though, I have caught the worse N word as a variant place names in the GNIS. I have tracked the lineage of particular place names, from the worst N word to the next N word, to now, black.

Squaw, N word, etc - they probably shouldn't be toponyms on the map. They just shouldn't.

That said, I have mixed feelings about a lot of the current push to change place-names. In fact I'm opposed to it in many instances. From the text of the Bill: Basically to change names that"

"honor of individuals who held racially repugnant views, committed atrocities against Native Americans, or supported or effectuated discriminatory policies.....to recognize individuals who carried out injustices against racial minorities...."
"...contains a sexual slur"
"..... American place names should be equitable and just, honor America’s cultural diversity, and advance dignity for all Americans"

The former criteria could be applied to essentially anyone. It's arbitrary, and a slippery slope, and starts at prehistory and certainly to the writers of the bill, delusionally ends in contemporary times. I don't even know what the latter means. Place names are not for "advancing dignity". Flat out, that's never been what they are for.

I want Roosevelt County, even though Teddy said some offputting things at times. I want all 23 Gobblers Knobs in America. I want the Suicide Cabin in the Southern Boulder Mountains, even though suicide is certainly offensive. I want the Devils Fence, even though the devil is arguably a religious name and certainly inequitable. And like Ben Lamb, I want Bloody Dick Peak to stay as it is and I'll fight to the death for it. I want kids to cringe and wonder at place names. You won't find anyone who thinks more that our place names are often boring, poor at description, and unnecessarily duplicative than me.

Folks may disagree, but this woke stuff has a tendency for scope creep, and though it may start with getting rid of a confederate general here or there, it will certainly head toward getting rid of Lincoln, Montana - due to Abe's actions toward minorities at the time, and renaming the Pioneers, because everyone knows Pioneers are the sacred cow of Manifest Destiny and all it's evils.And on and on it goes. This bill should get rid of place names derogatory toward ethnicities and races, and that's it. The rest is just 21st century puritanism.

A nerfed world has little character.

All that said, I would be interested to look at the thousand or so place names that have been flagged. Can't find it anywhere.

Text - H.R.8455 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Reconciliation in Place Names Act

Text for H.R.8455 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Reconciliation in Place Names Act

www.congress.gov

Completely agree. I guess on one hand this is easy and some of the names should have been renamed decades ago, but on the other there are a few things I can think of more important than renaming things that are or at least sound offensive. The west is on fire, 30% of Americans don't have access to high speed internet, roads and bridges are falling apart, and a third of states want to "tweak" voting rules. Can we work on having a discussion on these harder problems at some point?

 

[Nameless Range]

I think this is actually super interesting coming from someone with the handle “nameless range”!! Right!?? Have you had anything named after your suggestion?! That’s cool as hell, after the tedious process, to say you felt your voice was heard..

I've only ever contributed my opinions on name changes, never new names. Incredibly, there are still nameless ranges in Montana. May it forever be so. Interestingly, folks have tried to name the nameless ranges, and gone through the process only to fail:



Others, just concoct their own and to hell with formalities:



And others, jump through the hoops and leave a legacy. The mountains I live in, the Boulder Mountains, 1,600 sq miles of Montana, were unnamed until Edward Ruppel came along in 1986:

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@wllm1313 , I guess I have never thought about its pros and cons, though I will say it seems a pretty democratized process.

-Montanan wants to change a name, or name something unnamed for that matter, and writes a proposal and sends it in to the State Steward of Geographic Names
-State receives it, and solicits advice from the county commissioners of that place, numerous state agencies to see how it would affect their business (Water rights at the DNRC, HD boundaries FWP, etc), as well as the public.
-They consolidate and consider the input from everyone, and then forward it to the Bureau of Geographic Names who are the final arbiters.

I suppose it is tedious. That said, I have taken part in it and felt my voice was heard. FWIW.

My default is to very conservative about changing a place name. I think they may matter more than we think.

I agree that does seem like a much more democratized process, especially as it gives locals voice.

Do you have a sense if that's how it works across the west?

 

[Nameless Range]

I agree that does seem like a much more democratized process, especially as it gives locals voice.

Do you have a sense if that's how it works across the west?

Good question. I actually don't know for certain, but I believe every state has an Geographic Names Advisory Board, or at least a single steward. That's an interesting thing to think about. I suppose folks could feel different about name changes if it is just some bureaucrats doing it at their whim.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

I've only ever contributed my opinions on name changes, never new names. Incredibly, there are still nameless ranges in Montana. May it forever be so. Interestingly, folks have tried to name the nameless ranges, and gone through the process only to fail:

View attachment 188796

Others, just concoct their own and to hell with formalities:

View attachment 188797

And others, jump through the hoops and leave a legacy. The mountains I live in, the Boulder Mountains, 1,600 sq miles of Montana, were unnamed until Edward Ruppel came along in 1986:

View attachment 188798

Dude this is wicked… are you really a doctor? Major kudos for this post.. I was just at sheepshead this weekend and my wife’s family has frequent the area for generations mining. If you ever see anyone camped at Carlsons Corrals. Come see me.

 

[Nameless Range]

Dude this is wicked… are you really a doctor? Major kudos for this post.. I was just at sheepshead this weekend and my wife’s family has frequent the area for generations mining. If you ever see anyone camped at Carlsons Corrals. Come see me.

LOL. No I am not a Doctor. I am a dork who geeks out on databases of place names and reads old newspapers. Ha!

Those are all older articles.

 

[Dougfirtree]

The thing is, place names are changed all the time. Usually for misspellings, or things like that, but often to get rid of slurs out there. It is done judiciously by residents of the area, requires support from local and state government in conjunction with the Board of Geographic Names, and happens often dink and dunk at a time.

Montana Geographic Names Advisor - Home

mslservices.mt.gov

Yes and for other reasons. We just renamed a small mountain in my neck of the woods to honor a local suffragette, Inez Mulholland. It went from Discovery Mt. to Mt. Inez. I've seen a few of these changes happen here to honor some person.

 

[Gerald Martin]

May I suggest Snowflake Slough as an appropriate name for a natural feature renamed for any other reason than @Nameless Range outlined?

 

[BirdManMike]

There is a spot I know called 'Woman's Pocket'. Did they mean a literal woman's pocket or is this some puritan slang for a vagina?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

There is a spot I know called 'Woman's Pocket'. Did they mean a literal woman's pocket or is this some puritan slang for a vagina?

Ah yes I believe Georgia O'Keeffe submitted that one.

 

[Cheesehead]

What do we want? MAGGIE’S NIPPLE!
When do we want it? FOREVER!

Umm, but seriously, I think a basic Golden Rule approach to cartography is best. Imagine being black and having to give directions to emergency medical personnel to where @Hilljackoutlaw is passed out drunk in the snow on the top of N- - - - - Peak. Best to rename things that are clearly offensive.

But agreed that expunging names of historical figures who had views that don’t square with current trends of thought is less than helpful.

 

[The Hedgehog]

1) read map
2) cry
3) fill out hurt feelings report and send to the right politician