One way to stop a corner cross

[Fremont15]

In the Cherry case that the Supreme Court upheld, wasn’t he crossing the gap referenced earlier in this thread?
They didn’t buy his argument that since he had done it for a long time he had essentially created an easement for himself.
I could be wrong, I didn’t read the entire article before commenting.

Yea if I remember right he wasn’t actually crossing at a corner.

 

[Sytes]

In the Cherry case that the Supreme Court upheld, wasn’t he crossing the gap referenced earlier in this thread?
They didn’t buy his argument that since he had done it for a long time he had essentially created an easement for himself.
I could be wrong, I didn’t read the entire article before commenting.

What we hear and the actual Court recorded info for the appeal purpose are often miles apart. One is to gain mob support, the other is straight from the Court itself:

2 Chief Justice Mike McGrath delivered the Opinion of the Court.

¶1Appellant Cody Cherry (“Cherry”) appeals from an April 4, 2019 order of the Sixth Judicial District Court, Park County. The District Court affirmed a Park County Justice Court verdict that found Cherry guilty of Failure to Obtain Landowner Permission for Hunting, § 87-6-415, MCA.

87-6-415. Failure to obtain landowner's permission for hunting, MCA

leg.mt.gov

Edit for clarification - in the case that found him guilty, he claimed he crossed due to his long term use. He was convicted of crossing to public w/o permission. His appeal was based on whether he was actually "hunting" when the game cameras caught he and his friend crossing while wearing orange with rifles and according to the Warden, Cherry and his friend both acknowledged they were, "hunting".

The two specific portions Cherry appealed:

¶9
Issue One: Whether, under § 87-6-415, MCA, the Justice Court and the District Court erred when they declined to adopt Cherry’s argument that “hunting” and “taking or attempting to take” a game animal are separate, distinct actions that the State has the burden of proving.

¶17
Issue Two: Whether the Justice Court abused its discretion by allowing the State to submit its jury instructions after the deadline.

EDIT ADDED:

One to keep in mind for any of us who may/may not cross at the four corners of private /public land: Even though Cherry crossed at what appeared as a corner, the following played into and, in a sense, does not apply to corner crossing however it does when we look at our corners and whether our corner areas match this same setting. Wild! To say the least and the reason his argument turned to long time type of "prescriptive easement" in prior case though not used in his State Supreme Court appeal.

But here’s where this issue gets even more complicated. Because the earth is round, some of the square-mile sections of land that were surveyed in the 19th Century don’t actually touch at the corner.

In a second case last year, a jury found Cherry guilty of failing to get landowner permission for hunting on Point of Rocks Ranch when he cut across a nearly 80 foot gap between two corners of Forest Service land.

MT Supreme Court:

...Cherry and Burns were coming from another section of public land (S34, T06, R06 E) (“Section 34”) and attempting to access Section 2 via the northwest corner. Unlike a typical land survey corner that has four sections meeting to form four corners, Section 34 and Section 2 are separated by approximately 80 feet of Point of Rocks Ranch land. As a result of the separation between the two sections of public land, Cherry and Burns traversed across Point of Rocks Ranch land to access Section 2...

 

[Gerald Martin]

If,(if) I understand it correctly, the Supreme Court got that one right.
He wasn’t crossing at connecting corners but walking multiple steps across private land on offset not intersecting corners.

 

[Sytes]

If,(if) I understand it correctly, the Supreme Court got that one right.
He wasn’t crossing at connecting corners but walking multiple steps across private land on offset not intersecting corners.

Sorry Gerald, my edits (see above at the lower portion of the post) were on screen while reading the Court records further and it didn't display your recent post. See the updated info - what I found interesting, (would be cool if @Nameless Range could chime in) it appeared on early maps as a corner, thus over the many years they considered it, "corner crossing" and ethically correct for them to do such, However, as further discussed (mentioned above) improved tech showed they crossed private land - due to the shape of the earth! Hah! Thus became his plight that he had a prescriptive type of easement. Wonder if MT tax collection GIS is based on this earth shape for OnX to work off or if we need to be very sure of our alleged, "corner".

I just noticed your post while about to add an interesting perspective I thought fitting and close to our Hunt Talk home... Not to say names though

From an article:

“I can’t imagine a court in the country would prosecute a hunter for stepping into this gray area,” he said. “I think the law is on our side, and sportsmen have nothing to lose and literally hundreds of thousands of acres to gain by resolving this issue once and for all.”

I'd assist his legal funding if that person choose to play ball... well $100 worth. My name's not Dutton after all. Haha!

 

[Gerald Martin]

When your test case corner isn’t an actual corner....

 

[Straight Arrow]

So, is this an advocacy to end private landownership of property?

If that is what you understood from the discussion ... then please improve reading comprehension skills, or read more slowly ... or something. I am a private property owner who cherishes property rights. But blocking access to public lands is not okay!

 

[CGeminski42]

Wow

 

[thusby]

First dude shows me his 2021 ticket for corner crossing, with acceptable data to prove it, I will pay your fine.

 

[Highfastflyer]

Randy Newberg spoke with multiple attorneys and most agreed Corner Hopping is not a Criminal trespass but certainly is a Civil Trespass. Realize many of these landowners have very deep pockets and will use attorneys to bog you down and harass you in a Civil trial and they likely would win according to Randy’s sources. Think about it, do you want Phillip Anshcutz and his stable of attorneys going after you in a Civil Trespass trial? You cannot physically step across a corner without Trespassing and everyone knows it is impossible as the owner owns the airspace above that corner and you just Trespassed right through it. There are ways a Legislature could fix this. North Dakota has the model to follow. Every section n North Dakota has an easement surrounding it which is something like 60 feet so 30 feet on either side of a fence going completely around each Section or square mile of land. States would have to pay the landowners for these easements around every section. It would be in the $ Billions to do so and I doubt any legislature is ready and willing to burden themselves with such a huge expenditure. Take a look at North Dakota law and how it pertains to public easements around every section. The Randy Newberg podcast starts around the 42 minute mark here. https://hunttalk.libsyn.com/ep-012-randy-newberg-answers-fan-questions

 

[Sytes]

I recall his discussions in the helo DIY hunt show. I'll add that podcast to my list. Thanks for sharing. I came to a corner and found two T posts pounded into the private corners of property. Impossible to step from public to public. I sure wouldn't fit between the 2 inches or so... That was all. No fence, etc. Easily defined someone entering private if they chose from the likely game cam(s).

 

[Highfastflyer]

Sounds like the Elk Mountain scenario in Wyoming. The Game and Fish won’t prosecute but Carbon County DA has gone on record saying the6 will prosecute it as Criminal Trespass though I haven’t heard of anyone getting charged.

 

[Bob-WY]

It's both trespassing and not trespassing at the same time, sort of like the 4-corners monument in SW, where you can stand in 4 states at once.

My understanding in WY is its up to each county attorney. I asked my local G&F warden and local county attorney will not prosecute if you prove you stepped over a marker like the one above. Short of that he will. There also aren't markers at all corners.

So good luck!

 

[Highfastflyer]

It's both trespassing and not trespassing at the same time, sort of like the 4-corners monument in SW, where you can stand in 4 states at once.

My understanding in WY is its up to each county attorney. I asked my local G&F warden and local county attorney will not prosecute if you prove you stepped over a marker like the one above. Short of that he will. There also aren't markers at all corners.

So good luck!

This is the Criminal side of the law. As Randy Newberg points out there are two types of Law, criminal and Civil. The County may not go after you, some will some won’t but it is likely a Civil Trespass as Randy points out in the podcast above. Would you want Phillip Anschutz and his stable of lawyers coming after you for a Civil Lawsuit?

 

[golfer]

It's both trespassing and not trespassing at the same time, sort of like the 4-corners monument in SW, where you can stand in 4 states at once.

My understanding in WY is its up to each county attorney. I asked my local G&F warden and local county attorney will not prosecute if you prove you stepped over a marker like the one above. Short of that he will. There also aren't markers at all corners.

So good luck!

So how many western hunters out ther will know what an actual corner stone looks like and can understand the markings on the stone properly? Not all corners are brass or aluminum caps. I would have a hard time believing the average individual has no idea what they would be looking for at these corners.

 

[grizzly_]

I came to a corner and found two T posts pounded into the private corners of property. Impossible to step from public to public. I sure wouldn't fit between the 2 inches or so...

Soon the DIY Magazines will have a new comparison review... This year's "must-have" for every checkerboard hunter's pack!

 

[David58]

Randy Newberg spoke with multiple attorneys and most agreed Corner Hopping is not a Criminal trespass but certainly is a Civil Trespass. Realize many of these landowners have very deep pockets and will use attorneys to bog you down and harass you in a Civil trial and they likely would win according to Randy’s sources. Think about it, do you want Phillip Anshcutz and his stable of attorneys going after you in a Civil Trespass trial? You cannot physically step across a corner without Trespassing and everyone knows it is impossible as the owner owns the airspace above that corner and you just Trespassed right through it. There are ways a Legislature could fix this. North Dakota has the model to follow. Every section n North Dakota has an easement surrounding it which is something like 60 feet so 30 feet on either side of a fence going completely around each Section or square mile of land. States would have to pay the landowners for these easements around every section. It would be in the $ Billions to do so and I doubt any legislature is ready and willing to burden themselves with such a huge expenditure. Take a look at North Dakota law and how it pertains to public easements around every section. The Randy Newberg podcast starts around the 42 minute mark here. https://hunttalk.libsyn.com/ep-012-randy-newberg-answers-fan-questions

So, if I stand on the edge of public land, stretch out my arm, wave it around above the private land, I'm trespassing? I suppose I'm willing to be that criminal that will step over the corner pin, not setting foot on the private ground, and do my hunting.

If I were a real jackass of a property owner, I'd only need about 20' of fence and six posts, and just fence an 'x' at the corner. This comes down to a simple GMAB, but both hunters and landowners have been and will continue to be jerks on this count. Sometimes just pure greed, but other landowners have had their property trashed by jerks calling themselves hunters, and one can understand their POV. But the lands are public, and landowners should not be allowed to lock up public lands by preventing corner crossing.

Probably didn't add anything, but there it is....

 

[antlerradar]

So how many western hunters out ther will know what an actual corner stone looks like and can understand the markings on the stone properly? Not all corners are brass or aluminum caps. I would have a hard time believing the average individual has no idea what they would be looking for at these corners.

Just about all section corners out west are marked with brass caps or with nothing at all. Some of the very old homestead boundary's are marked with stones but since most of those homesteads are in the best of the bottom land very little public land is involved with those corners. I would be surprised if more than a 100 corners marked with stones were corner crossing applies.

 

[golfer]

Just about all section corners out west are marked with brass caps or with nothing at all. Some of the very old homestead boundary's are marked with stones but since most of those homesteads are in the best of the bottom land very little public land is involved with those corners. I would be surprised if more than a 100 corners marked with stones were corner crossing applies.

I would agree for the most part. But I’ve also seen where the monument has been ripped out of the ground and just laying there. I would have to say that most BLM corners should have brass caps. Not sure what the states requirements are on having corners marked. But I don’t believe there’s a state surveyor that’s been hired for marking the corners like the BLM has done.

 

[mtmuley]

I would agree for the most part. But I’ve also seen where the monument has been ripped out of the ground and just laying there. I would have to say that most BLM corners should have brass caps. Not sure what the states requirements are on having corners marked. But I don’t believe there’s a state surveyor that’s been hired for marking the corners like the BLM has done.

FS where I am is marked with brass stakes and caps. Trees are marked also if present. Some are hard to find, and some aren't even the real corner. Pretty tough to stay legal. mtmuley

 

[golfer]

FS where I am is marked with brass stakes and caps. Trees are marked also if present. Some are hard to find, and some aren't even the real corner. Pretty tough to stay legal. mtmuley

Thats just it, is its just tough to determine unless theres a brass cap there with the acutal numbers on it. Those trees could also be reference montuments or in the FS reference trees to the actual corner. So unless you have the plat and well something better than OnX for you to determine the exact location of the intersection, its going to be diffucult to find the exact corner and stay legal. The stone will always hold senoity to the cap. So if theres a stone and a cap the cap is only representing the surveyor found the monument(stone) and recorded it. So then those would need to determine the center of the stone which often times irregular shaped so there is another obstacle to determine to stay legal.