Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[Eric Albus]

And I’ve read all 2800+ posts on this thread. I’m not casting stones. I’m sick of your entitlement

Entitled. I am a lot of things, self admittedly, but entitled is certainly not one.

 

[Eric Albus]

Do Wyoming outfitters run on a draw?

They have a point system that works.

 

[MTLabrador]

They have a point system that works.

So a preference point system with 25% random allocation works in Wyoming but not Montana?

 

[brockel]

They have a point system that works.

Is it going to be 2 Or 3 points that pulls a general tag in Wyoming this year? For elk anyways. Haven’t looked into deer. So those outfitters can only bank on their repeats every second or third year. Sound familiar?

 

[Laszlo Cravensworth]

I have more ppl wanting to hunt with me than I can take, or the resource can handle, so I turn them to my friends .

No business can run on a draw.

 

[Wildabeest]

Nobody was forced to go with me during the days of OSL. In fact the number of outfitters who went broke during the tenure of OSL tells the tale.
If I read your post correctly, you believe that I need to find a price point where the guy who accidentally drew license will come hunt? Most ppl who enter draw on their own are planning to hunt on their own and are happy to hunt “our state/region” and shoot a fork horn mulie and leave.....leaving nothing in our community except a gut pile.

With all due respect, Eric, and I sincerely appreciate your contributions to this discussion, nobody “accidentally” draws a license. All NR hopeful hunters, whether outfitted or DIY intentionally put into a draw system in the hopes of drawing a tag. That process should be blind to whether they intend to hunt DIY or outfitted. If they draw a tag, then it’s up to you to provide your service at a price/value point that is competitive to both other outfitters and the DIY option. If you don’t, then you don’t deserve to be in business. That’s capitalism. That’s ‘Mercia. Why you and MOGA resist that is beyond me since all the other political views you seem to have definitely reflect that.

As for your statement that most people who enter the draw intend to hunt DIY, that may be true but misses the point. Ever since OSL’s were eliminated, everyone NR who wants to hunt, regardless of DIY or outfitted, put into the same draw. That’s the way it should be. The fact that more of those are DIY is irrelevant.

I say again that I think outfitters provide a valuable service that many hunters will choose to utilize. I have no issue with that or outfitting in general. I do have an issue when outfitters feel like they are entitled to all the tags their clients desire at the expense of folks who decide DIY is more their preference. There’s not a single thing said in the nearly 150 pages of this thread or the other one that justifies that.

 

[Derek44]

You are apparently a special kind of mad and/or stupid. No business can run on a draw. Imagine if the business you claim to run had to rely on clients/retail outlets drawing a lottery number to buy YOUR logs. Think about it, you find an entity (you understand what this is?) willing to buy your logs, but first they must enter a
Draw to buy said logs. If they don’t draw your number, You Do Not get to sell Your Logs

My industry battles market conditions which may be different in basis, but still pose the same challenges. Say 3 landowners closer to our local mills have timber ready to harvest and can sell it just a little cheaper (Because the shipping costs are lower) guess what, the mill buys it from them and us a little farther out have to wait a year. Not a drawing, but it is the market challenges that are presented. EVERY business in this great country faces market challenges and only the real “men” face them and overcome. The rest cry to big brother to fix it for them. And by the way, insulting my intelligence or my honesty as far as owning a business does nothing but reveal more of your true character

 

[Wildabeest]

You are apparently a special kind of mad and/or stupid. No business can run on a draw. Imagine if the business you claim to run had to rely on clients/retail outlets drawing a lottery number to buy YOUR logs. Think about it, you find an entity (you understand what this is?) willing to buy your logs, but first they must enter a
Draw to buy said logs. If they don’t draw your number, You Do Not get to sell Your Logs

Eric, most businesses don’t run on a draw, but they do run on a set of assumption for things they don’t control. They rely on customers having the disposal income to pay for their product/service, they rely on the market they choose to play in to provide profitable business, etc, etc. Most build their business strategies around those risks vs. groveling in Helena for handouts. Sometimes those assumptions go against them. They either pivot or they fail. It’s the way our system is designed. Your situation is not nearly as unique as you (or MOGA’s rhetoric) have convinced yourself that it is. You choose to provide a service that relies on a public resource. That should give neither you nor your client any right/entitlement to that resource above anyone else.

 

[Eric Albus]

And I do by the way. I own a log trucking business in North Central Washington and I guarantee you, I don’t need to run to the governor and legislature to find my clientele. And I also work along side the Indian reservation so competition is rough if you don’t have all your papers. I just provide an excellent, efficient, legal and affordable service and that’s how people decide to utilize my services

Eric, most businesses don’t run on a draw, but they do run on a set of assumption for things they don’t control. They rely on customers having the disposal income to pay for their product/service, they rely on the market they choose to play in to provide profitable business, etc, etc. Most build their business strategies around those risks vs. groveling in Helena for handouts. Sometimes those assumptions go against them. They either pivot or they fail. It’s the way our system is designed. Your situation is not nearly as unique as you (or MOGA’s rhetoric) have convinced yourself that it is. You choose to provide a service that relies on a public resource. That should give neither you nor your client any right/entitlement to that resource above anyone else.

What you fail to understand is that I’m not “selling the resource”. I am selling my service, just like restaurant or machinery dealer. My product is like a car on a showroom floor. If someone doesn’t want what I’m selling I go without the sale.
The clientele that I take does not compete with the R or DIY NR for accessible lands/game.

 

[Eric Albus]

My industry battles market conditions which may be different in basis, but still pose the same challenges. Say 3 landowners closer to our local mills have timber ready to harvest and can sell it just a little cheaper (Because the shipping costs are lower) guess what, the mill buys it from them and us a little farther out have to wait a year. Not a drawing, but it is the market challenges that are presented. EVERY business in this great country faces market challenges and only the real “men” face them and overcome. The rest cry to big brother to fix it for them. And by the way, insulting my intelligence or my honesty as far as owning a business does nothing but reveal more of your true character

Your business is then a mirror of my outfitting business.
Think I don’t face competition from other outfitters for leases? Think I don’t face competition from outfitters hunting closer to airports/population centers?
The one thing you got right is your business is not a drawing.
The other thing is I don’t know you, so will take you at your word now that you indeed do own a logging company. From the price of 2x4’s and OSB you should be getting rich, but I’ll bet it’s a lot like ranching/farming/outfitting, looks are deceptive.

 

[Big Shooter]

And I’ve read all 2800+ posts on this thread. I’m not casting stones. I’m sick of your entitlement

You seem like a bitter person. Just saying.

 

[Hunt West]

What you fail to understand is that I’m not “selling the resource”. I am selling my service, just like restaurant or machinery dealer. My product is like a car on a showroom floor. If someone doesn’t want what I’m selling I go without the sale.
The clientele that I take does not compete with the R or DIY NR for accessible lands/game.

Without the resource your service doesn’t exist.

 

[BuzzH]

They have a point system that works.

Explain it to us then Eric...how it works in WY for outfitters but you claim is impossible in Montana.

How about AZ while we're on the subject.

 

[406dn]

Is it going to be 2 Or 3 points that pulls a general tag in Wyoming this year? For elk anyways. Haven’t looked into deer. So those outfitters can only bank on their repeats every second or third year. Sound familiar?

Just a few days ago, my wife and I visited her brother, while on a road trip.

He is an avid hunter, who with a friend, hunt Wyoming for elk. They hunt in the Thorofare area, every other year,,,at least until recently. He told me that his outfitter has told him that given the demand for tags, he and his friend will have longer spans between hunts.

Of course that outfitter has the advantage of non residents being required to use an outfitter in a wilderness area.

I get that absent outfitters, landowners are not magically going to throw out a welcome mat to resident hunters. That is fine, it is private property. But the wildlife on their land is a public resource. It is not their's to sell without any regard to the thoughts of every resident of the state.

The license set aside sets up a tidy racket for outfitters and landowners. Landowners can monetize the wildlife using their land and the state funnels clients to the outfitters. What's not to like, if you are in the racket.

 

[Hunting Wife]

The clientele that I take does not compete with the R or DIY NR for accessible lands/game.

They directly compete with them for licenses and permits to access those game, do they not? So this bill gives those with money preferential treatment in that “competition”. Directly counter to the North American model. That’s the whole point.

 

[Derek44]

You seem like a bitter person. Just saying.

I must say that this whole situation has left a pretty bitter taste in my mouth

 

[El Jason]

I must say that this whole situation has left a pretty bitter taste in my mouth

Same.

 

[mtmuley]

Same.

Yeah, but remember, nobody "hates" outfitters. mtmuley

 

[El Jason]

Yeah, but remember, nobody "hates" outfitters. mtmuley

I don’t hate outfitters. Believe it or don’t.

 

[BirdManMike]

Yeah, but remember, nobody "hates" outfitters. mtmuley

I had never given outfitters a second thought, good or bad, until this nonsense. Probably like many others.