Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[Wildabeest]

This is only true for the big game combos. Lot of elk and deer tags for Nonresidents aren't capped at a specific number.

And I believe it’s a fixed number (17,000?) vs a percent. You can’t do a percent when residents are unlimited OTC.

 

[thebestusernamesaretaken]

You have no idea what you're talking about, basically the entire National Forest system is divided into areas allocated to outfitters who have exclusive outfitting rights in those areas, and nearly half of MT NRs are already hunting with outfitters.

So, your saying that I can get more tags?

 

[TN_Rifle_Junkie]

The cycle of vindictive behavior will not stop until both sides come to the table to find a middle of the road which is best for the wildlife and MONTANA residents.

I for one, am happy that Montana gives nonresidents "a chance" to hunt their state.

Hopefully the residents (DIY) and Outfitters can come to an agreement to how to handle nonresidents in the future.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The 17K is for the B-10 deer/elk combo.

The B-11 has 4600 of which 2000 are landowner set-asides.

In 2011 or 13 (I can't remember) there was a switch to allow for the turned in B-10 deer portion to be resold as the B-11 combo, vastly increasing the number of B-11 licenses that are sold, outside of the statutory cap.

Add on to that the decreased pressure from Come Home to Hunt, MT Native, and other free or reduced cost licenses and you see mission creep exponentially to increase the number of NR licenses available.

Almost all of those sideways increases in NR tags came from MOGA, or were lobbied in support of by them btw.

Hopefully the residents (DIY) and Outfitters can come to an agreement to how to handle nonresidents in the future.

Someone has to make the first move but I think for right now, the best thing to do is calm down and let folks think for a bit before doing anything. The session just ended. Mother's Day Caddis & salmonflies & golden stoneflies are about to pop. Folks should get out and chase spring bear, hunt turkeys & fish. Go enjoy what you fight for, gain some perspective and then plan for the future.

 

[Wildabeest]

All of us who were there witnessed it. Why would I attempt to educate someone who will doubt and cast disparities. From felons to signature gathering folk outright lie to people to get them to sign.

 

[thebestusernamesaretaken]

View attachment 182306

I just learned something!

 

[whiskeydog]

Actually, where outfitters manage, game thrives. Let’s face it, if it’s wide open to the public it’s over hunted.

right...cause there aren't any outfitters hunting public land ...what an uneducated statement

 

[BuzzH]

The lines have been well established: Sportsman groups vs FWP, Landowners and Outfitters.

I don't belong to any sportsman group, I am not a landowner, an employee of FWP or a guide, yet I hunt and fish for most everything in Montana. There will never be a treaty signed to the satisfaction of both sides, but I still think Montana provides great opportunities to all of these groups.

I don't believe in a campfire, holding hands and singing Kum-By-Ya, but there is still plenty for everyone. It is tiring to see this constant battle with so much vitriol toward the 3 groups that don't fit the model of Sportsman's groups.

The last line in the above quote seems to set the tone for the type of hunting that the sportsmen want to see in Montana and it is as selfish as the opposition is accused of.

I hunt public and private ground and find game every year. I enjoy hunting for a myriad of reasons, not only for trophies. I still like to get trophies and have been successful at that, but I still like hunting and shoot does and non-trophy bucks and elk.

The constant complaining of the deterioration of quality big game is only as relevant as the the guy that wants to hunt for those animals. Go to a taxidermist shop and you will still see great animals being killed every year, testifying of the good animals that still reside in Montana.

Montana, as poorly organized and ruined by FWP, outfitters and landowners as it is, is still a fantastic state that allows me to do what I want, when and where I want. I understand the attempt to improve circumstances around this precious resource, but the continued arguing has created a division that doesn't need to exist.

The others that feel this way remain silent because they don't want beat up by outspoken people against their personal views, I don't really care because I will continue to hunt and fish with or around all the people mentioned here, some friends and some that are not...

Change is made by those that show up...and Montana Wildlife Management changes need to happen.

Most don't agree with you that everything is fine.

Thanks for your thoughts...

 

[whiskeydog]

Governor still hasn't signed...is there any chance at all that he vetoes?

 

[thebestusernamesaretaken]

Office of the Governor

Toll Free: 855-318-1330
Phone: 406-444-3111
FAX: 406-444-5529

PO Box 200801 Helena, MT 59620-0801

 

[sacountry]

Governor still hasn't signed...is there any chance at all that he vetoes?

I do think the silence is deafening. I did express my desire for a veto last week using the Governor's web portal.

 

[shrapnel]

Change is made by those that show up...and Montana Wildlife Management changes need to happen.

Most don't agree with you that everything is fine.

Thanks for your thoughts...

So says you. You need to know you aren’t the king of all things outdoors, just a loud noise some consider “white noise”

I hope that meets your approval, you have been needling me for a long time, I have been quiet, but you are your biggest fan, most outspoken against Montana and it’s management and yet you continue to take advantage of Montana’s so-called poorly run programs.

Don’t be so two-faced, shut up or quit coming here.

 

[Beignet]

@Eric Albus - Eric, I have a few questions if you don't mind answering? Trying to understand things from the outfitter side a bit better. Also, apologies if you've already answered any/all these, as this thread has gotten long. Additional apologies if these questions are too prying into the financial structure of your business.

I get that a substantial portion of outfitter business comes from repeat customers, as in customers you see annually. How difficult would it have been for you to start booking say, two rotating groups of biennial repeat customers? So, a group hunts with you this year, does well, and says "see ya in 2023!" Then the 2022 group says "see ya in 2024!" and so on. Would the market have existed for such an arrangement? Do you think you could have gotten your clients used to the fact that they could only hunt with you every other year? Also, if you don't mind me asking, what percentage of clients that you book are annual repeats?

I recognize that those questions are moot if the new legislation gets signed into law, but am curious as to how your market demand worked prior to HB 637.

 

[Kiwi]

Passed, but nothing is signed into law by the governor yet.

Law says that outfitter sponsored hunters can purchase two NR combo preference points at time of applying. The rest of us can purchase one a year.

It does not technically guarantee or set aside a number or percentage of tags for outfitted vs. DIY hunters, but two preference points has historically been a 100% draw. So the legislature has effectively given outfitted sponsored hunters as many tags as the user group can consume, and the opportunity to hunt Montana every year.

I think I read that you have two points already, and will have a third when you apply next year? You would have more points that the outfitter sponsored hunter applying fresh or applying again next year. Long story long: despite this law going into effect, you, as a NR DIY hunter, will draw a NR combo with three points next year.

Thanks! That’s clear now. Yes I have 2 points and three when I apply next year.

 

[Kiwi]

Kiwi,

This year, 2021, every single Nonresident that booked with an Outfitter or provided a deposit for a future hunt will get their desired tags. All Nonresident hunters that hunt this year, 2021, via an Outfitter will have the option of buying (2) points for the 2022 drawing. The estimated number of 3,000 additional "Outfitted" Nonresidents will be getting their tags this year. This was the "Estimate" quoted by the talking heads in Helena during the back door, last minute process to get this dumpster fire added to the language of the passed bill. In reality, this number is complete and utter B.S.!! In 2019, the MOGA asked for damn near twice that number of additional tags under "COVID" relief but our Gov did not buy into that and he did not sign on the dotted line. So, for the 2022 drawing, every Nonresident that hunts with an Outfitter, this year, could be sitting in the general draw with (2) points. This pushes the Outfitted nonresident hunters to the front of the line, year after year.

You are going into the 2022 drawing with (3) points. (3) points should guarantee you a win in the 2022 drawing as all the return "Outfitted" Nonresidents will have (2) points.

In the near future, the (2) point guarantee granted to the "Outfitted" Nonresidents will log jam the system and additional points will be needed to guarantee a tag via the drawing. Once this occurs, MOGA will be back with their hands out and hat in hand begging for more!

Wow, that really would create a mess. Really hope I can get back to MT and use my tags next year otherwise it will be a long wait!

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Outfitters take hunters to places that you and I cannot hunt, or in wilderness areas. The public places is where the pressure is. When you see the masses next fall on public ground, those aren’t outfitted clients. Those are DIY guys you all are trying to cater to instead of those licenses going to outfitted clients. Am I the only one who sees this? It’s gonna suck. Let the outfitters take the same amount of guys they have always took instead of flooding our public lands with NR DIY guys. There won’t be a fork horn buck left. Why does no one care about quality!

This didn't just give tags to Wilderness and private land outfitters so it's actually causing MORE pressure on public lands. So what about all of the public land outfitters in NW MT hunting non-wilderness areas that now have access to more tags? Is there an surplus of elk and mule deer over there that no DIY folks can access? Sure seems like a lot of locals up there would rather drive southeast 5 or 6 hours than hunt their backyard.

There's more than a couple public land outfitters in SW MT too.

 

[sacountry]

Lot's and lot's of good dialogue on this HB637 issue. It's too bad this can't go into some sort of mediation process between MOGA, BHA, MWF, FWP, and others. I'm confident a solution could be found if we remove the politicians. I still think there is room for an outfitter to buck up some coin to buy a "certified outfitter" license. That license may cost $100k one time, but with it comes 25 guaranteed NR combo tags every year (those NR combos still have to be purchased annually by the NR hunter mind you).

On their website, MOGA boasts about 100 deer/elk outfitters from across the state. Cap the "certified outfitter" license to 100 outfitters, after which no more are sold. Those who own one, can sell their license to another outfitter that is pre-certified by the state and with it go the 25 NR combo tags. Since a certified outfitter license is restricted to 25 NR combos, you'll never have more than 2,500 guaranteed NR combos available in any one year. All I want in return as a joe-schmoe Montana resident hunter is to have every dollar generated go towards the Block Mgmt program. Collectively we need to figure out how to make this program more attractive to land owners. IMHO, it needs more funding. I have no qualms about using our wealthy NR guests wallets to fund resident and less wealthy NR hunting opportunities through the Block program

This model would not restrict noncertified outfitters from outfitting, they just can't obtain the guaranteed NR tags....but they can still guide the NR lottery winners. There are other market oriented solutions to this problem, mostly quota based systems for commercial harvesting of natural resources, but this one seems more equitable and allows all parties to benefit without the risk of wildlife exploitation.

 

[antlerradar]

Since landowners can guide hunters on there own land without and outfitters license, is there anything to stop a landowner from declaring themselves an outfitter and then being able form a hunt club in which all nonresident members are now able to buy two preference points? Can the Wilks brothers declare themselves outfitters and then be able to buy two preference points for themselves and anyone that they invite can also buy two preference points?

 

[Gevock]

Gov. Gianforte should veto the outfitter license bill HB 637

HB 637, was amended in the second-to-last day of the Legislature to include unlimited outfitter sponsored big game licenses for nonresidents this year, and to permanently give an extra point to nonresident hunters using an outfitter.



This bill was already full of problems, and these changes were put in at the last minute to purposely avoid public debate on these special treatment for outfitters provisions. This is terrible, swamp-style politics at its worst that goes against Montanans wish that everybody has an equal chance to hunt here.



Please contact Gov. Gianforte and ask him to VETO HB 637.

You can call the governor’s office at 444-3111, or contact him by email at https://svc.mt.gov/gov/contact/shareopinion.



PLEASE LEAVE YOUR OWN MESSAGE, but hit these points:

• Montanans rejected special interest outfitter licenses and want everyone to have an equal opportunity to hunt here.
• We have offered solutions for outfitters to know their potential clients, and are still willing to discuss ideas to do that.
• This is not how Montanans do business – slipping provisions into bills at the last minute to avoid public input.

 

[BuzzH]

So says you. You need to know you aren’t the king of all things outdoors, just a loud noise some consider “white noise”

I hope that meets your approval, you have been needling me for a long time, I have been quiet, but you are your biggest fan, most outspoken against Montana and it’s management and yet you continue to take advantage of Montana’s so-called poorly run programs.

Don’t be so two-faced, shut up or quit coming here.

So says most Montana hunters.

You live in a bubble where you believe that everything is great while blasting a dink mule deer buck every year, a couple does and a cow off private with old rifles. I get it, its all about you...you make that more than apparent every time you post. You sound like the type of guy to carve his name on a rock wall somewhere...because its all about you.

That may be great hunting to you, but most want better hunting, in particular on public land. Hunting on public land is not OK...its been broken for a long time.

When big-game is managed to minimum numbers by law...how do you explain that as proper management?

How do you explain flying unit 202 and finding 8 elk, proper management?

How do you explain a majority of Montana hunting units having single digit bull-to-cow ratio's as proper management?

How do you explain finding 202 elk in the Bob Marshal on classification flights as proper management?

How, in the area I've hunted since 1979, my family since the 1930's...that the estimated number of bulls is 80, and the harvest statistics say they kill over 90 bulls? Is THAT proper management?

How do you explain 75 goat tags in the Bitterroots when I applied there from 1979-1986...and now they issue ONE tag. Is that proper management?

While applying for sheep in Montana last week, I noticed there are 115 total ram/either sex permits being issued this year. Of those 56 tags are issued for FOUR units (one of which is the little Rockies and issues only one permit). Meaning 55 tags are issued in THREE hunting units. If not for the Breaks, Montana would be issuing 59 sheep tags...that's pathetic. You think that's a function of proper management?

Do I need to go on?

Frankly, I'm shocked that someone your age, that's hunted as long as you have, think things are fine...they aren't and haven't been for a long time.

Yes, I take advantage of the Native deer license...but to my knowledge I only know of one NR that testified against the come-home-to-hunt and Native licenses. I'll let you guess who that was.