That’s quite the elaboration. I think I get dumber every time I open this thread.
Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)
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Gerald Martin
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No. I actually don’t know it happened. I am pretty clueless about the facts surrounding I-161. I wasn’t involved with or really interested in wildlife issues in the legislature or the political arena. (At the time of the initiative)
I do remember voting for the elimination of OSL but I did so purely on the basis of understanding the unfairness of priority for one user group over others just because they hire an outfitter. Increased access was never on my radar throughout the process.
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LostinOregon1
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I said that I didn't think what happened was right as I hunt Montana every year I can. I mention that in the 2nd paragraph and also talk about what politics really is these days. The future doesn't look good for opportunities.
Rich
Wildabeest
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Sydney Powell, Rudy and the pillow guy have all the evidence. They are going to release it “any day now”.
Kiwi
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Sorry for the annoying questions, but can someone please confirm the bill has now passed and as a result from now on 60% of all non-resident deer and elk combo licenses are available to hunters sponsored by an outfitter? Therefore when i apply (DIY) next year the pool of licenses is much smaller - potentially only 40% of last years number.
I've tried to google the answer without success. Thanks.
I've tried to google the answer without success. Thanks.
Passed, but nothing is signed into law by the governor yet.
Law says that outfitter sponsored hunters can purchase two NR combo preference points at time of applying. The rest of us can purchase one a year.
It does not technically guarantee or set aside a number or percentage of tags for outfitted vs. DIY hunters, but two preference points has historically been a 100% draw. So the legislature has effectively given outfitted sponsored hunters as many tags as the user group can consume, and the opportunity to hunt Montana every year.
I think I read that you have two points already, and will have a third when you apply next year? You would have more points that the outfitter sponsored hunter applying fresh or applying again next year. Long story long: despite this law going into effect, you, as a NR DIY hunter, will draw a NR combo with three points next year.
Mtnhunter1
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Kiwi,
This year, 2021, every single Nonresident that booked with an Outfitter or provided a deposit for a future hunt will get their desired tags. All Nonresident hunters that hunt this year, 2021, via an Outfitter will have the option of buying (2) points for the 2022 drawing. The estimated number of 3,000 additional "Outfitted" Nonresidents will be getting their tags this year. This was the "Estimate" quoted by the talking heads in Helena during the back door, last minute process to get this dumpster fire added to the language of the passed bill. In reality, this number is complete and utter B.S.!! In 2019, the MOGA asked for damn near twice that number of additional tags under "COVID" relief but our Gov did not buy into that and he did not sign on the dotted line. So, for the 2022 drawing, every Nonresident that hunts with an Outfitter, this year, could be sitting in the general draw with (2) points. This pushes the Outfitted nonresident hunters to the front of the line, year after year.
You are going into the 2022 drawing with (3) points. (3) points should guarantee you a win in the 2022 drawing as all the return "Outfitted" Nonresidents will have (2) points.
In the near future, the (2) point guarantee granted to the "Outfitted" Nonresidents will log jam the system and additional points will be needed to guarantee a tag via the drawing. Once this occurs, MOGA will be back with their hands out and hat in hand begging for more!
TN_Rifle_Junkie
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And that, is where I was going.Very true...but its not one or two that have collected 425 billion in the last 25 years either.
EWG's Farm Subsidy Database
EWG's Farm Subsidy Database put the issue on the map and is driving reform. Just ten percent of America's largest and richest farms collect almost three-fourths of federal farm subsidies; cash payments that often harm the environment.farm.ewg.org
For the record, I'm not opposed to the subsidies...just well past over the hypocrisy of the recipients.
Farming is farming. They have their own federal programs to help in bad years.
Outfitting is outfitting. That is a whole nother ball of "dirty" wax (that just got rolled in a pile of elk duds).
I have agreed that the way the MT outfitter tag allotment bill got through is completely unsatisfactory. It is a shame that for the next three draw cycles we will ALL feel the pain. Except for the chosen few who "pay to play".
Eric Albus
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All of us who were there witnessed it. Why would I attempt to educate someone who will doubt and cast disparities. From felons to signature gathering folk outright lie to people to get them to sign.
The near future will be after next year. This was a very damming and short sited "fix" on MOGA's side. They laid all their cards on the table and gave all DIY hunters and Residents the middle finger. I would assume this one will sting the outfitting community for awhile.
As for the 2 PP it will help next year (22) but than in the 23 draw there will be an over whelming number of hunters with 2pp because they didn't draw in 22. So basically 2PP will be the new 1 and 3 is the max points and you are reset to 0. Starting the cycle all over again.
It's funny how Mac talked about how confusing the PP system was for people when he talked to Randy on the podcast but it's seems they figured it out pretty quickly knowing that if they give their clients the welfare of 2PP to start they will be "guaranteed"
Lots of reports of intimidation by outfitters of citizens who were looking at petitions too. Those were made by extremely credible people.
There is no clean hand in this issue. Both sides have acted inappropriately, and until both sides stop acting like pissed off 17 year olds, nothing but conflict will come of it.
BTW - nice first post, whomever is typing from the talking points memo developed by the outfitting lobby.
Gerald Martin
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Eric, I don’t know what you saw or thought you saw about the signature gathering process but the fact about the actual passage of I-161 is a majority of Montana voters agreed they didn’t want guaranteed OSL. You might not have liked that outcome but it doesn’t invalidate the results.
You keep mentioning felons and signatures as if laws were violated? What happened and what law was violated?
You keep mentioning felons and signatures as if laws were violated? What happened and what law was violated?
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tjones
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I know a lot of folks that gathered the signatures and none fit your description.
MOGA sued on those issues, and they lost
Group wants I-161 off ballot
Attempting to halt a vote on Initiative 161 in November, the Montana Outfitters and Guides Association filed a lawsuit in Lewis and Clark County District Court this week charging that
Gerald Martin
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I am thinking resident hunters and DIY non residents are the pissed on in regards to outfitter welfare tags.
MOGA has burned the goodwill bridge this session.
Gerald Martin
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I wish there was another petition to sign today. I know a bunch of other folks who would happily sign as well.MOGA sued on those issues, and they lost
Group wants I-161 off ballot
Attempting to halt a vote on Initiative 161 in November, the Montana Outfitters and Guides Association filed a lawsuit in Lewis and Clark County District Court this week charging thatbillingsgazette.com
TN_Rifle_Junkie
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From a nonresident looking in, the way I read most of this thread is:
Outfitters: You screwed us out of Outfitter Set-aside Tags with a ballot initiative. So we are going to amass a huge amount of lobbying push (spoken $$$) at the Capital and change it for our betterment (including clients). We are mad and the state owes us "our due" as small business operators.
DIY Hunters: We put up a referendum and the state voted to remove a set aside for outfitters. The outfitter "union" just snuck in a 11.75 hour rider on a bill to pretty much screw over all nonresident hunters for the next three years. They use their money and influence only for their own good, and think nothing of other Montana residents (land access) or DIY hunters.
The cycle of vindictive behavior will not stop until both sides come to the table to find a middle of the road which is best for the wildlife and MONTANA residents. Also, what other industries in Montana get subsidized/assistance by the state government? In my state, they get property tax breaks, but not much else. Most of these are related to the country music industry, major manufacturing (Bush's Baked Beans, Dupont, Paper/Steel mills), and entertainment industries (amusement parks - Dollywood, etc) I can't think of a single small business that gets a "leg up" from the state just to get ahead but my research is pretty limited.
I for one, am happy that Montana gives nonresidents "a chance" to hunt their state.
That chance has been greatly reduced by this bill unless I am willing to spend $$$$ to get head of line privilege. (Pay to play)
If ALL the outfitters had 350+ bulls or 200+ bucks to hunt, I could see the draw to spend that kind of money, but Montana maintains their wildlife for opportunity vice quality.
Gerald Martin
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Everyone on both sides of this conversation seems to be presenting OSL as the way it always was.
It wasn’t. The outfitters operated for decades without set aside tags. When legislation was passed creating guarantee OSL’s, the referendum that was I-161 was Montana residents response that we do not support OSL.
MOGA and outfitters are trying to muddy the water and playing the victim card.
It wasn’t. The outfitters operated for decades without set aside tags. When legislation was passed creating guarantee OSL’s, the referendum that was I-161 was Montana residents response that we do not support OSL.
MOGA and outfitters are trying to muddy the water and playing the victim card.
TN_Rifle_Junkie
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Good point... We need more of this in the world nowadays.Matthew 18: 21-22
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