Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[Ben Lamb]

I

The MOGA leadership, president and board, had a meeting in Lewistown before the session started, and left with no real clear direction as to what we’d do this session. We had 143 dropped on us, and unless someone is holding out on me, we had no idea what was coming. If I’d have had any input this is not what we would’ve had for a bill.

I don't dispute how you & other board members came to find out about the bill, but your staff & lobbyists were working on this since September. The bill draft was available for anyone to see through request to Legislative Services and the LSO staffer that was drafting it.

That bill draft had two rounds of edits in December, and was available for the entire world to read it online in early January. It was introduced a week before the hearing, so anyone who is telling you that it was dropped on you a couple of days before the hearing is lying to you, Eric.

That bill got worked heavily by your lobby team & staff before the session got rolling, and it was edited heavily by your lobby team & staff starting in December.

So, as I'm taking you on your word that you didn't see the draft until a couple of days before the hearing (post #1782), then somebody is either not giving the MOGA board the tools to be involved in an educated manner, or the board isn't really engaged on the legislative side of your trade organization. Both of those scenarios should worry any non-profit or trade organization that has people doing business in their name.

 

[Eric Albus]

Are you talking landowner tags or something similar to to CO ranching for wildlife?
Judging form the reaction to 505 I think landowner tags have about a snow ball chance in hell.
I would not participate in ranching for wildlife, but am not against the concept. Not that different from block management. Block management is cash for access, ranching for wildlife is tags for access. It is the details of these agreements that leave a bad taste.

No I don’t think ranching for wildlife would ever fly in Montana.
There may be a program that a think tank of both sides could craft that would work. There was to be a win/win/win. The wildlife, the landowners, then the hunting community.
If the accessible lands held the same quality and numbers as the private lands nobody would care what outfitters or landowners were doing.
If those involved want to see an increase in access and a decrease in leasing, manage the accessible to look like the in accessible. Very few would pay for something they could have for free.

 

[Straight Arrow]

... unless someone is holding out on me, we had no idea what was coming. If I’d have had any input this is not what we would’ve had for a bill.

Eric, your out-of-the-loop status then does not surprise me. You are too reasonable and willing to consider others' interests. This bill has an obvious pointed agenda that obviously roils quick debate and opposition. Likely those "powers that be" anticipated a slam dunk and did not want any friction from within or outside.

 

[Derek44]

Do the pool cleaning clients have to enter a
Lottery to get their pool cleaner? Bad analogy.

Gerald, shoots, and the others on here whom I respect, I can completely appreciate your points of view. I can understand the fairness argument of guided license vs. self guided draw.
What can’t be argued is who is making the most impact economically with the least impact on the resource. While reducing pressure on accessible land. I hope that I am wrong(bet I’m not though) about this; eastern Montana is about to be over run with DIY Washington, Minnesota, and Western Cali-Montana’s killing our last fork horned mule deer. It’s gotten so bad a warden I spoke with the other day brought this point up, asking if we(outfitter community) would help do something to reduce the pressure.
I’m all for it. Let’s do something to protect our resource.

What exactly do you mean by “least impact on the resource”? Are you indicating that, per capita, outfitted hunters success rate is lower than DIY? I would assume that it is the other way around. However I don’t know. But if it is the other way around, and we provide more outfitted tags than DIY, in the end, the resource would suffer more impact. Does anyone have a success rate breakdown between outfitted and DIY??

 

[YoungGun]

No I don’t think ranching for wildlife would ever fly in Montana.
There may be a program that a think tank of both sides could craft that would work. There was to be a win/win/win. The wildlife, the landowners, then the hunting community.
If the accessible lands held the same quality and numbers as the private lands nobody would care what outfitters or landowners were doing.
If those involved want to see an increase in access and a decrease in leasing, manage the accessible to look like the in accessible. Very few would pay for something they could have for free.

Like restricting outfitted hunters from hunting federally managed land (National Forest, BLM) or all public land (NF, BLM, State School Trust..)? I think it was Theat that talked about western Montana DIY hunters competing with guided hunters on National Forest. This would help resolve that issue.

 

[tjones]

Hopefully this one is dead. That’s all we would need with SB275 (fox guarding the hen house)headed to GG’s desk.

Eric, you may want to take a hard look and continuing to be a part of an outfit like MOGA that purposely keeps you in the dark on such important issues.

 

[Eric Albus]

What exactly do you mean by “least impact on the resource”? Are you indicating that, per capita, outfitted hunters success rate is lower than DIY? I would assume that it is the other way around. However I don’t know. But if it is the other way around, and we provide more outfitted tags than DIY, in the end, the resource would suffer more impact. Does anyone have a success rate breakdown between outfitted and DIY??

No, I stating that on average outfitted hunters are here in Mt max 5 days. Impacting the resource less than DIY guys here for 7-20 days

 

[mtmuley]

No, I stating that on average outfitted hunters are here in Mt max 5 days. Impacting the resource less than DIY guys here for 7-20 days

Not popular to say but I bet guided hunters aren't stacking does with B tags. mtmuley

 

[Eric Albus]

Like restricting outfitted hunters from hunting federally managed land (National Forest, BLM) or all public land (NF, BLM, State School Trust..)? I think it was Theat that talked about western Montana DIY hunters competing with guided hunters on National Forest. This would help resolve that issue.

In eastern Montana it’s DIY Washington, Minnesota, and western Mt R hunters invading the “ugly half of Montana” because they have no game left. The BLM and CMR campgrounds that used to be vacant or maybe have 1-3 campers/tents are now overcrowded.

 

[Eric Albus]

Not popular to say but I bet guided hunters aren't stacking does with B tags. mtmuley

I haven’t allowed a client to take a mule deer doe since 2010. I have also not allowed the public to take a mule deer doe. Whitetail does, ask I will shock you.

 

[brockel]

I haven’t allowed a client to take a mule deer doe since 2010. I have also not allowed the public to take a mule deer doe. Whitetail does, ask I will shock you.

Wish fwp would do the same.

 

[Wildabeest]

No, I stating that on average outfitted hunters are here in Mt max 5 days. Impacting the resource less than DIY guys here for 7-20 days

And spending 7x more than I do with 2-3 trips of 7-10 days each?

 

[BT_NVhunter]

The bill has until.revenue transmittal to move across to the House. By not moving, it means there is not enough support to do anything with it, or the sponsor has asked that it not be heard while they try something different to generate support.

Heard today they may try to make this fit into the weed money bill dropping, or try to get it out in the budget. It would be a huge lift, but that's how the did the apprentice hunter bill after it died in committee.

So with this bill kind of in limbo, should I still be emailing house members about it? Or are they not concerned until it actually becomes part of their schedule? Just wondering what the best route is to continue to voice displeasure in hopes no one will allow it to be a part of their legislative proposal in fear that their ideas maybe shot down because of this nonsense being lumped in with it? Thanks in advance.

 

[Ben Lamb]

So with this bill kind of in limbo, should I still be emailing house members about it? Or are they not concerned until it actually becomes part of their schedule? Just wondering what the best route is to continue to voice displeasure in hopes no one will allow it to be a part of their legislative proposal in fear that their ideas maybe shot down because of this nonsense being lumped in with it? Thanks in advance.

Great question: As of now, it's sitting in Senate F&C and they're discussing amendments, apparently. So it would have to pass out of there, and then pass the whole senate again, so let's keep our focus on the senate for now, hold fire & wait for their plan of attack.

 

[Eric Albus]

And spending 7x more than I do with 2-3 trips of 7-10 days each?

I do not know what your expenditures are.

If they total more than $6500 you are spending more than the average guided hunter. My client’s tell me that they are spending close to 8k when all is said and done on their Montana excursion.

I know several NR who spend weeks hunting in Montana, some even own houses and “ranches”. Most put very little into the local economy but they are paying taxes.

 

[BT_NVhunter]

Is that 8k with flight? Because when I’ve been to Montana on fishing trips and family Vacations ( I have not had the pleasure of hunting MT yet). But I spent well over $2500 just gas and groceries and that’s in MT because the way I look at it why would I bring that stuff and pay sales tax when I can run into Walmart when I get there and have no sales tax? 8k seems super high if they are paying to stay with or drop camp with the outfitter because all food everything is provided for them in their one purchase. Unless they are all purchasing a brand new rifle when they arrive in MT I just don’t see how they could be spending that much. IMHO I feel they are either embellishing or tallying new clothes and boots and everything they got for themselves. All of which I would assume they are purchasing in their home state and of no benefit to the MT economy.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Is that 8k with flight? Because when I’ve been to Montana on fishing trips and family Vacations ( I have not had the pleasure of hunting MT yet). But I spent well over $2500 just gas and groceries and that’s in MT because the way I look at it why would I bring that stuff and pay sales tax when I can run into Walmart when I get there and have no sales tax? 8k seems super high if they are paying to stay with or drop camp with the outfitter because all food everything is provided for them in their one purchase. Unless they are all purchasing a brand new rifle when they arrive in MT I just don’t see how they could be spending that much. IMHO I feel they are either embellishing or tallying new clothes and boots and everything they got for themselves. All of which I would assume they are purchasing in their home state and of no benefit to the MT economy.

Montana Big Game combo deer elk license $1,052 + $448 snacks, beer & other adult beverages + $6,000 outfitter fee + $500 tip to guide for raghorn and forkhorn success = $8,000.

 

[Big Shooter]

Is that 8k with flight? Because when I’ve been to Montana on fishing trips and family Vacations ( I have not had the pleasure of hunting MT yet). But I spent well over $2500 just gas and groceries and that’s in MT because the way I look at it why would I bring that stuff and pay sales tax when I can run into Walmart when I get there and have no sales tax? 8k seems super high if they are paying to stay with or drop camp with the outfitter because all food everything is provided for them in their one purchase. Unless they are all purchasing a brand new rifle when they arrive in MT I just don’t see how they could be spending that much. IMHO I feel they are either embellishing or tallying new clothes and boots and everything they got for themselves. All of which I would assume they are purchasing in their home state and of no benefit to the MT economy.

Tag: $700...ish (for deer combo)
Hunt: $6500 (on average)
Motel room the night prior to arriving in camp: $120
Tip for guide: $750
Tip for cook: $200
Dinner before arriving at camp: $50
Gifts for wife at local gift shop: $100
Meal after leaving camp and prior to flying out: $50
Motel room the night prior to leaving for home: $120
Taxidermist: $700
Meat processing: $150

Adds up quickly, and........all staying in Montana. Just saying.

 

[brocksw]

Is that 8k with flight? Because when I’ve been to Montana on fishing trips and family Vacations ( I have not had the pleasure of hunting MT yet). But I spent well over $2500 just gas and groceries and that’s in MT because the way I look at it why would I bring that stuff and pay sales tax when I can run into Walmart when I get there and have no sales tax? 8k seems super high if they are paying to stay with or drop camp with the outfitter because all food everything is provided for them in their one purchase. Unless they are all purchasing a brand new rifle when they arrive in MT I just don’t see how they could be spending that much. IMHO I feel they are either embellishing or tallying new clothes and boots and everything they got for themselves. All of which I would assume they are purchasing in their home state and of no benefit to the MT economy.

I think it's a much bigger crapshoot than any one wants to acknowledge. I believe one of Eric's guides doesn't even live in MT. I'm sure there are other guides that don't live in MT either but just come for the fall for a couple hunts, so how can their financial impact be better than a NR who buys a cabin in MT and lives there a couple months out of the year?

The economic impact taking priority over everything else is a terrible notion, It's regretful to think we can boil down our heritage and traditions, our wild places and wild life to nothing more than a dollar figure and who gets what cut of it...but at this point it seems like it's the only argument MOGA has....or at least the only one they think they can win.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I booked MT archery elk hunt with an outfitter for 2022. The outfitter is based in WY. I will be staying with outfitter in WY. I doubt the outfitter is going to spend all his income in MT for the half dozen tags or so he runs in MT.

I'm foregoing MT applications this year so I can have 2 PP and another bonus point going into next years draw. I should have about 90% odds of drawing the permit barring any drastic changes to regs/applicants. Doesn't seem all that complicated to plan this sort of thing and it's for a LE Permit.

Now that i'm spouting off.. Watch me draw a general tag but miss on the permit draw so I can wait two more years to even enter the permit drawing again.

The constant labeling of the tag system in MT as a "lottery" by outfitters ruins their credibility unless said outfitters are referring to Permit tags, which are becoming less predictable. How do outfitters in NV deal with it where the high point holders still have single digit odds? Is there landowner tags that prop up the outfitters there?