Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[WIbiggame]

What can’t be argued is who is making the most impact economically with the least impact on the resource.

Not just you as I heard it from Mac and others but there has been a lot talked about the 7-1 multiplier and how much more outfitters provide MT financially than DIY hunters.

And you talk about

Let’s do something to protect our resource.

Yet it seems like the only resource you want protected is your business model. The only $$ you are bringing in that is going to help the resource is the license sale which is exactly the same amount I am contributing as a NR. So in regards to protecting the resource it's not 7-1 its 1-1.

I apologize if your outfitting license and other fees go to help montana habitat and animals and I am way out in left field.

Also didn't MOGA appose the $300 extra fee going to Habitat Montana? Wouldn't that be helping to protect the resource?

 

[Hem]

We actually deliver a product that is a necessity and not a luxury. If anyone deserves priority isn’t it us?

Yep...shelter is a necessity.
About time for a government entity to step in and step up lumber production,but also get prices back to pre-covid.

 

[Hunt West]

Do the pool cleaning clients have to enter a
Lottery to get their pool cleaner? Bad analogy.

Gerald, shoots, and the others on here whom I respect, I can completely appreciate your points of view. I can understand the fairness argument of guided license vs. self guided draw.
What can’t be argued is who is making the most impact economically with the least impact on the resource. While reducing pressure on accessible land. I hope that I am wrong(bet I’m not though) about this; eastern Montana is about to be over run with DIY Washington, Minnesota, and Western Cali-Montana’s killing our last fork horned mule deer. It’s gotten so bad a warden I spoke with the other day brought this point up, asking if we(outfitter community) would help do something to reduce the pressure.
I’m all for it. Let’s do something to protect our resource.

I just don’t see it getting anymore overrun than it already is... unless the number of licenses is going up and we know that’s not happening.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Do the pool cleaning clients have to enter a
Lottery to get their pool cleaner? Bad analogy.

Gerald, shoots, and the others on here whom I respect, I can completely appreciate your points of view. I can understand the fairness argument of guided license vs. self guided draw.
What can’t be argued is who is making the most impact economically with the least impact on the resource. While reducing pressure on accessible land. I hope that I am wrong(bet I’m not though) about this; eastern Montana is about to be over run with DIY Washington, Minnesota, and Western Cali-Montana’s killing our last fork horned mule deer. It’s gotten so bad a warden I spoke with the other day brought this point up, asking if we(outfitter community) would help do something to reduce the pressure.
I’m all for it. Let’s do something to protect our resource.

I’m all for protecting the resource. That includes from over exploitation from resident hunters. In the scale of notched tags and dead deer, residents are going to have way more impact on the resource than NR’s.
We can’t continue unlimited resident numbers on accessible areas for eleven weeks of hunting and expect to have anything resembling quality.

In the grand scale, putting a few thousand N.R’s on outfitted private instead of public isn’t really going to change much from a management perspective.
There are things the DIY community and the outfitter community can work together on.
I would welcome some engagement from the outfitter community to the DIY community to work together instead of all these bills that will only benefit outfitters and landowners and won’t solve the real problems.

 

[brocksw]

Do the pool cleaning clients have to enter a
Lottery to get their pool cleaner? Bad analogy.

Gerald, shoots, and the others on here whom I respect, I can completely appreciate your points of view. I can understand the fairness argument of guided license vs. self guided draw.
What can’t be argued is who is making the most impact economically with the least impact on the resource. While reducing pressure on accessible land. I hope that I am wrong(bet I’m not though) about this; eastern Montana is about to be over run with DIY Washington, Minnesota, and Western Cali-Montana’s killing our last fork horned mule deer. It’s gotten so bad a warden I spoke with the other day brought this point up, asking if we(outfitter community) would help do something to reduce the pressure.
I’m all for it. Let’s do something to protect our resource.

Guided Mule Deer Hunts Colorado | Mule Deer Hunting Outfitter Colorado Unit 55, 54, 551, 67

AEI Outfitter provides guide services for Colorado mule deer hunting and other Colorado deer hunting excursions.

www.aeiguideandoutfitter.com

See how these guides do it? It tells potential clients right on their website. "this is how many points it takes to draw these tags". If I call and try and book a hunt next year with an insufficient amount of points they're going tell me to call back when I have enough points to draw the damn tag... and they'll tell me that right after they ask how many points I have.

The moga crew is basically saying to the same hunters, "Yep, no problem well take your money get your app in and see you next fall". Then when all the hunters don't draw because they didn't have the points.. MOGA scratches their head in bewilderment and goes complaining to the state saying its not fair, that they can't be expected to adapt to a changing market like every other business. Nor can they Be expected to actually understand the draw statistics that are provided every year.

Any Draw with preference points isn't even a true lottery. So your argument doesn't hold weight there either. But even if it was it's still not our problem that you chose to build a business model around lottery winners.

If I want to build a business around actual lottery winners, like the Mega millions or what have you, that's my decision and me going to gov to try and guarantee a certain number winners have to do business with me or participate in my industry is akin to crony capitalism.

 

[brockel]

I’m all for protecting the resource. That includes from over exploitation from resident hunters. In the scale of notched tags and dead deer, residents are going to have way more impact on the resource than NR’s.
We can’t continue unlimited resident numbers on accessible areas for eleven weeks of hunting and expect to have anything resembling quality.

In the grand scale, putting a few thousand N.R’s on outfitted private instead of public isn’t really going to change much from a management perspective.
There are things the DIY community and the outfitter community can work together on.
I would welcome some engagement from the outfitter community to the DIY community to work together instead of all these bills that will only benefit outfitters and landowners and won’t solve the real problems.

I’ve been hoping for a resident draw on at least mule deer tags for a long time. Run the season archery through September. The general draw through October and then a special draw for a rut hunt in November would be an alright compromise for the ones hating the idea of cutting their 11 weeks down

 

[Beignet]

I’ve been hoping for a resident draw on at least mule deer tags for a long time. Run the season archery through September. The general draw through October and then a special draw for a rut hunt in November would be an alright compromise for the ones hating the idea of cutting their 11 weeks down

Shifting more units to a LE mule deer rut tag is an idea I can get on board with, as in some of R4.

 

[Big Shooter]

I just don’t see it getting anymore overrun than it already is... unless the number of licenses is going up and we know that’s not happening.

What Eric is saying could possibly/probably happen this year is that less outfitted clients could draw, those tags will be drawn by DIY hunters that instead of hunting on private with no access, will be hunting the public or BM. We all already know that there is an overcrowding issue and this year it could possibly get way worse and more overrun. License numbers are not changing, you are correct.

 

[brockel]

What Eric is saying could possibly/probably happen this year is that less outfitted clients could draw, those tags will be drawn by DIY hunters that instead of hunting on private with no access, will be hunting the public or BM. We all already know that there is an overcrowding issue and this year it could possibly get way worse and more overrun. License numbers are not changing, you are correct.

Do you and Eric turn away a lot of potential clients every year because you are fully booked?

 

[shoots-straight]

Do the pool cleaning clients have to enter a
Lottery to get their pool cleaner? Bad analogy.

Gerald, shoots, and the others on here whom I respect, I can completely appreciate your points of view. I can understand the fairness argument of guided license vs. self guided draw.
What can’t be argued is who is making the most impact economically with the least impact on the resource. While reducing pressure on accessible land. I hope that I am wrong(bet I’m not though) about this; eastern Montana is about to be over run with DIY Washington, Minnesota, and Western Cali-Montana’s killing our last fork horned mule deer. It’s gotten so bad a warden I spoke with the other day brought this point up, asking if we(outfitter community) would help do something to reduce the pressure.
I’m all for it. Let’s do something to protect our resource.

My friend, you talk like a new type of outfitter. One that speaks about the resource and sacrificing for it. I hope this talk spreads around the environment you live.

Historically, I never see outfitters show up for the resource, but your talk has me encouraged. Now we need to change the mindset of all the people who seem to think they need to harvest a mule deer forky every year.

 

[Big Shooter]

My friend, you talk like a new type of outfitter. One that speaks about the resource and sacrificing for it. I hope this talk spreads around the environment you live.

Historically, I never see outfitters show up for the resource, but your talk has me encouraged. Now we need to change the mindset of all the people who seem to think they need to harvest a mule deer forky every year.

That last sentence was one of the best yet! But with that being said.....will also be the biggest hurdle as well. I couldn’t agree with you more, but everyone thinks differently as far as a “trophy” is concerned or their thoughts on a ”quality experience“. Not sure how to make that happen.

 

[Eric Albus]

I’m all for protecting the resource. That includes from over exploitation from resident hunters. In the scale of notched tags and dead deer, residents are going to have way more impact on the resource than NR’s.
We can’t continue unlimited resident numbers on accessible areas for eleven weeks of hunting and expect to have anything resembling quality.

In the grand scale, putting a few thousand N.R’s on outfitted private instead of public isn’t really going to change much from a management perspective.
There are things the DIY community and the outfitter community can work together on.
I would welcome some engagement from the outfitter community to the DIY community to work together instead of all these bills that will only benefit outfitters and landowners and won’t solve the real problems.

Yes they are. R hunters need scaled back a do NR hunters especially on accessible lands

 

[Gerald Martin]

That last sentence was one of the best yet! But with that being said.....will also be the biggest hurdle as well. I couldn’t agree with you more, but everyone thinks differently as far as a “trophy” is concerned or their thoughts on a ”quality experience“. Not sure how to make that happen.

It’s going to have to start with a paradigm shift among Montanans. A paradigm shift that doesn’t just give lip service to the North American Wildlife Model but implements its principles in management policies.

It starts with recognizing that a $20 piece of paper doesn’t mean that I have to kill just because I paid for a tag. Personally, I take it on myself to exercise restraint and have left many tags unfilled in years I had plenty of meat and didn’t see a buck that fit my idea of trophy status.

It starts with outfitters prioritizing resource over profit. It starts with landowners accepting wildlife is a condition of the land and working cooperatively with hunters to keep populations in check.
It starts with the majority of Montana hunters saying we want to work with farmers and ranchers to solve problems, but we aren’t going to destroy our resources or reward the people who are causing overpopulation problems with a priority for our wildlife.

It all starts with a change of attitude.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Yes they are. R hunters need scaled back a do NR hunters especially on accessible lands

I am in complete agreement. And I am willing to hunt less to protect the resource.

 

[LostinOregon1]

There are a bunch of federal and state subsidized businesses out there. Farmers, airlines, vehicle manufacturers, banks just to name a few. I'm sure there are more especially with the stimulus packages being sent out.

I have been hunting SE Montana for the last 25 years as a non-resident. I actually think the outfitters serve a purpose. They lock up land, and then keep their harvests within reason. If it wasn't for the rancher/outfitter I don't think there would be any deer left in SE Montana. There were years when you could kill 4 mule deer does, plus your buck for crying out loud. The national forest looked like a dead deer zone, it was crazy. It doesn't matter who kills the deer, residents, non-residents or outfitter clients, they are all dead! Everyone is excited to see block management expand. The properties get overhunted and turn private land into the forests. You have to control the harvest for crying out loud.

There was a mention above about a Colorado landowner showing how many points to draw their deer hunts. I bet if you call them and tell them you don't have points, they could set you up with a landowner voucher for a fee.

I think we should be discussing how to bring the mule deer back in Montana, instead of arguing who gets the tags. I used to see 25 plus mule deer bucks a day on the Custer National Forest. That wasn't that long ago, but with the over harvest and drought, you are lucky to see a 20 inch wide mule deer.

Rich

 

[WIbiggame]

I think we should be discussing how to bring the mule deer back in Montana, instead of arguing who gets the tags

I feel this has been the consensus here for the last 15 pages or so. However, it's hard to do when the same group backing 143 is backing 505 which would've given landowners 10 tags for every 650 acres.

The DIY group has been saying that the resource needs protecting several residents even saying they would hunt less to do this. But, there is 1 group (not the 2 guys on here Eric, and shooter) but the higher powers are pushing to further exploit said resources.

 

[Eric Albus]

There are a bunch of federal and state subsidized businesses out there. Farmers, airlines, vehicle manufacturers, banks just to name a few. I'm sure there are more especially with the stimulus packages being sent out.

I have been hunting SE Montana for the last 25 years as a non-resident. I actually think the outfitters serve a purpose. They lock up land, and then keep their harvests within reason. If it wasn't for the rancher/outfitter I don't think there would be any deer left in SE Montana. There were years when you could kill 4 mule deer does, plus your buck for crying out loud. The national forest looked like a dead deer zone, it was crazy. It doesn't matter who kills the deer, residents, non-residents or outfitter clients, they are all dead! Everyone is excited to see block management expand. The properties get overhunted and turn private land into the forests. You have to control the harvest for crying out loud.

There was a mention above about a Colorado landowner showing how many points to draw their deer hunts. I bet if you call them and tell them you don't have points, they could set you up with a landowner voucher for a fee.

I think we should be discussing how to bring the mule deer back in Montana, instead of arguing who gets the tags. I used to see 25 plus mule deer bucks a day on the Custer National Forest. That wasn't that long ago, but with the over harvest and drought, you are lucky to see a 20 inch wide mule deer.

Rich

Rich, appreciate your input. I outfit in SE Mt and NE Mt. I agree with you that were it not for the outfitter and private land owner there would not be any mature deer found in eastern Montana. NE Mt is especially hard hit as the majority of mule deer habitat is public.
Perhaps what is needed is a private land license in Montana. Good only on deeded land. This might increase pressure on private, especially during archery elk season and put elk where the public can access them. Same with deer, private land license that does not compete with the DIY guy hunting public land.

 

[Nemont]

Eric,
Isn’t that what the landowner sponsored licenses are? Only good on private? I might be wrong on that

What compromise would you and/or MOGA accept to stabilize the outfitting industry? Is there any common ground you see that a bridge can be built across to get to anything that both sides agree to?

I can tell what I agree with you on

1. Landowners need to be respected, included and heard in game management decisions.

2. We need to protect the resource and start to manage by what the biology says not by opportunity.

3. Outfitters are important businesses who serve hunters with an in demand service. Outfitters are part of the Montana heritage and provide more than just a hunt for many.

4. Resident hunters need to accept that it isn’t 1960 or even 1990 and our wild game herds need us to change the way we been used to hunting them. Rut hunting mule deer bucks for everyone needs to stop.

I want you to succeed and flourish because when you do well I do well. So how do we get there? I can tell you that when SB 143 was unveiled and Minard wanted 60% of NR tags I lost all trust in him being an honest player.

Jeff

 

[huntin24/7]

FWP has to stop using the “we’re an opportunity state” as basically a cop out when it comes to the idea of changing management practices here. I’m totally on board with not having the chance to kill a buck every year if it means a better quality hunt when I can buck hunt. A better quality hunt doesn’t strictly mean more trophy potential by the way either. It’s been a great run with all the opportunity allowed here, but it’s time for management practices to change for the betterment of the resource.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I want you to succeed and flourish because when you do well I do well. So how do we get there? I can tell you that when SB 143 was unveiled and Minard wanted 60% of NR tags I lost all trust in him being an honest player.

Jeff

SB-143 and asking for 60% the tags isn’t an anomaly in the way that MOGA lobbies for the financial benefit of outfitters and disregards the effects their preferences have on the resource and other interests.

IMO, it’s just one more indication of the entitlement mentality that exists within that community. This legislative session they believed they had the political tides in their favor and made zero effort to work with other interests to mitigate effects.

The public land outfitters I have had experience with have very little concern for the resource other than it being available for their harvest. They complain like crazy when a wolf or lion eats a deer, but are the same ones that don’t care if a client shoots a forked horn mule deer if the hunt has been slow. They justify it because their hunter payed a lot of money for the hunt and has a tag. Wildlife is just a commodity to them. A commodity they believe they are justified to have priority for exploitation before other shareholders.

To me HB-143 shows the true colors of MOGA.