Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[Gerald Martin]

At some point opportunity goes down with quality. We are well past that point on most public lands. That's unless taking a nature walk with a rifle and not seeing any game is your version of opportunity.

That is exactly my point. Outfitters and residents who refuse to be willing to address the real problem (too much pressure on the available resource) end up destroying the very thing they claim to be fighting for.
It’s understandable that outfitters do so because for all practical purposes the resource has always been a means to an end (profit). Their concern is primarily protecting their interests. That isn’t always at odds with sound wildlife management. When it is at odds with good management the choices MOGA and the outfitters have repeatedly made, prove to me they will always elevate profit over stewardship.

What is less comprehensible to me is how residents walk lock step on support of the very things that counter their own interests.

I think it stems mainly from ignorance of what the factors are that are causing the decline of opportunities and an unwillingness to make any sacrifices in the present to reap benefits in the future. It’s easier to find scapegoats than solutions.

 

[ChaosOneZero]

BigHornRam said:
Just caught the end of Montana Talks with Mac Minard on it. It was interesting. @Ben Lamb got a shout out. One minute Mac was touting how guided hunters come back 5 times more often than non guided and how that is good for the rural economy. Then he was saying guided hunters are mostly average Joe's who scrimp and save for years to go on a guided hunt. That dog didn't hunt.

Bighorn, Mac did not say that outfitted clients come back 5 times, he said the "return" of guided hunters is around 5 times the non-guided hunter. Meaning an outfitted client is spending 6500-8500 total expenditure, where as the average NR is spending around $1200(low end) to $2500 (high end) average.

Actually, Mr Minard did say that. On multiple occasions now, actually. In the radio interview posted by @Ben Lamb, he said outfitted clients are often repeat customers who come back year after year, and that’s why Montana should be trying to incentivize those NRs. And yet in another part of the interview he claimed that outfitted clients are often blue collar folks who save their entire lives for an outfitted hunt. Now which is it?

 

[BWALKER77]

BigHornRam said:
Just caught the end of Montana Talks with Mac Minard on it. It was interesting. @Ben Lamb got a shout out. One minute Mac was touting how guided hunters come back 5 times more often than non guided and how that is good for the rural economy. Then he was saying guided hunters are mostly average Joe's who scrimp and save for years to go on a guided hunt. That dog didn't hunt.

Bighorn, Mac did not say that outfitted clients come back 5 times, he said the "return" of guided hunters is around 5 times the non-guided hunter. Meaning an outfitted client is spending 6500-8500 total expenditure, where as the average NR is spending around $1200(low end) to $2500 (high end) average.

I dont know how one can even argue the economics of DYI vs. guided. DYI'ers in many cases sole reason for not using a guide is cost.
For a NR to hunt elk in MT DYI it should cost no more than $2500 all up. It's hard to find a guided hunt under $5000 all up.
Eric, I might add the transferable landowner tags are what led me not to support this bill. Along with the shoot for the sky 60% figure.
The argument for stability in regards to licensing is compelling as is limiting public land hunting by NR DYI'ers, but the rest not so much.

 

[Addicting]

It appears that so many different lies or misrepresented “facts” (opinions) are out there they are having a hard time keeping everything straight.

@Eric Albus you haven’t tried to address the posts I made calling out your version of use days. I am curious to hear your side of why and how them becoming exponentially more valuable is good for the common Montana residents who may want to get into guiding?

 

[Eric Albus]

Yes to both. I have clients who have hunted with me for 25 years some blue collar, some white collar. I also have guys who scrimp and save for 3-5 years to go on hunts and I have taken a number of folks on a "hunt of a lifetime", a few literally hunts of a lifetime. One hunt that particularly hit me hard was given to an organization in WA(something like "make a wish") and a father brought out his terminally ill 14 yr old son. He pulled us off to the side when he arrived and said "I haven't ever hunted and don't know why my boy wanted to do this, as he's never hunted, but it was free so I said ok to him". Last evening of the hunt he pulled us aside again and said "Now I get it, after being in camp for 5 days I am going home buying a rifle and start hunting for my sons memory".

Typing that out just now put things in perspective for me as I had not thought about that particular hunt for a while as it was 3-4 years ago.

 

[Eric Albus]

addicting, i havent read them, so repost as i am not going to look it up

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

So I am looking through montanas reports of campaign finance. I looked up the campaign finance report for Jason Ellsworth. Basically all small donations however.....


Interestingly enough however both committe members brown and hinebauch contributed to his campaign. Is this a normal practice ?

Also another interesting name on the donation list is our govenor Greg Gianforte, so we might not find to much favor if this bill makes it to the govenors desk.

Addiontally, Scott Boulanger who is a former state senator contributed, searching his name his title now is outfitter at forest resources of montana & assoc. LLC.

Continuing on Mark Baker, has tons of ties to washington DC

Steve Fitzpatrick, current mt state senator

Daniel Fuchs - Presiden at Triangle Public Affairs (lobbying/ pr firm) http://www.trianglepublicaffairs.com/#winning-angle

Gregory Hertz - Montana State Senator

John Iverson - MT tavern Association

Thomas McGillvray - Montana State Senator

Scott Reichner - Former MT State Senator

Scott Sales - Former MT Senator and FORMER MONTANA DIRECTOR OF AMERICANS FOR PROSPERITY ---- KOCH BROTHERS ADVOCACY GROUP

Elaine Taylor - Owner at Capitol Strategies - one of the countries longest opperating government affairs firms

The list just goes on and on, there are way more but Ill spare you all. So I guess im left asking the question, did literally no normal person donate to this guys campaign? I think this is the start of finding out who the special interest are pushing this bill. Seems bigger than just MOGA after looking at this list.




Below is the link to the page

https://cers-ext.mt.gov/CampaignTracker/public/searchResults/searchFinancials

 

[VikingsGuy]

Now which is it?

Which ever gets your vote

 

[Addicting]

addicting, i havent read them, so repost as i am not going to look it up

Not that hard, just type Addicting into the search bar. If I pull them up for you, would you like me to respond to them too?

 

[Eric Albus]

where is the "search bar" located. I don't live on this thing like some folk do. be easier to have them reposted. if you think you can respond for me feel free

 

[Eric Albus]

never mind just found it...and some messages i didnt know exsisted

 

[Eric Albus]

tried it was not helpful got about 10000 places to look for you

 

[VikingsGuy]

Interestingly enough however both committe members brown and hinebauch contributed to his campaign. Is this a normal practice ?

Yes, it is common place for politicians running in safe districts to share campaign funds with others in tough races or in high profile/statewide races. It happens at state and national level.

While I don't think limits on individual Americans or unions or companies is right (1A) or effective, there are two areas that have nothing to do with free speech that I would like to see regulated/eliminated - (a) inter-campaign donations (you could give your $ to Sen A who you support and then Sen A can give it to Govenor B who you may hate); and (b) the retention of left over campaign funds after the election/retirement/resignation.

[Edit to fix error - the rules have changed and I was relying on old memory.]

 

[Addicting]

tried it was not helpful got about 10000 places to look for you

I have 4012 post so par for the course on your estimation skills. Also, when I type it in the search the first 5 that show up are this thread. I took a screen shot for you. If you can’t do this simple thing why should anyone believe the research that you have referenced thru this process?

 

[Eric Albus]

remain anonymous and its easy to take shots at someone isn't it. I don't live on my computer, actually I hate it. and your posts are showing up abbreviated

personally i don't care if you can run your keyboard better than me or take a screenshot(whatever that is)

 

[Eric Albus]

NCHU are not "use days" for one thing..... so if you would just simply copy and paste the middle post onto this page I might respond, if you attempt civility.

 

[Addicting]

@Eric Albus you can easily identify me
[email protected] is my email address, I live in SW, MI.

I don’t have anything to hide and I am being civil. If you cannot navigate this simple site to answer questions then how is anyone to believe in your research data.

Here is where I got mine:

https://www.montanaoutfitters.org/wp-content/uploads/2018-MBO-FAQ-Presentation.pdf

 

[Addicting]

This morning I’ve been thinking quite a bit about this and how it’s “better” for residents.

With the use days being limited they become exponentially more valuable if this passes. How is that good for younger residents who want to get into guiding? It’s no different that what happened to farming with property values skyrocketed. Youth stand almost no chance in taking over the farm or outfitting business when they have to buy out a few siblings. I’m going thru this now as the farm has to get sold because I cannot afford to buy out my two sisters.

So this bill in effect makes the rich richer and the average joe not able to compete. In one generation we will have to have more legislation on subsidized low interest loans to help Resident purchase or keep use days. No different than what the USDA has to do now for young farmers.

@Eric Albus

 

[Rzrbk]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You obviously know absolutely nothing about Columbia river gill netting. There are both native and non-native gill netters. The natives obviously have treaty rights but not the regular 2nd or 3rd generation Joe blow commercial fisherman. The fight has been going on for over 100 years.

I guess I didn't know non-natives were allowed to run gill nets in the river. I knew the commercial guys ran seins in the open ocean. I'll be interested to look for more info on this.

 

[Bullbrl]

I guess I didn't know non-natives were allowed to run gill nets in the river. I knew the commercial guys ran seins in the open ocean. I'll be interested to look for more info on this.

Sorry, I came across as rather harsh in my response.

Below Bonneville dam non tribal commercial gilnetting has been going on for a long, long, long time. The amount of bickering, backstabbing, and downright hate between sports fisherman and commercials make this thread look like a sweet little happy conversation.