Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[406dn]

I moved out here in 81. It was about the most consequential decision in my life. It has played out better than I could have fairly asked. Two things that gobsmacked me when getting out here were that there was no sales tax and the general rifle big game season ran for 5 weeks.

Both of those are still true. One of them is badly outdated. If I was king of the state, there would still be no sales tax and the rifle and archery seasons would each be cut to three weeks, covering three weekends for each. There would be a few week gap between archery and rifle seasons

The rifle season would end the week end before Thanksgiving.

This will never happen, but it should. A lot has changed over forty years. If the big game herds really ever could sustain such long seasons, it is obvious to me that they no longer can.

Outfitters of course, would lobby very hard against that type of change, so would many residents.

 

[MTGomer]

I admittedly don’t know a lot about MOGA but my great uncle was an outfitter and a founding member of MOGA and a long timer contributor to the organization.
He died at 95, 3 years ago.
He never said a lot about MOGA, but knowing what he was like and how many things he did in his life to help the common man, I highly doubt he’d approve of where MOGA is or where they’re headed.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Just caught the end of Montana Talks with Mac Minard on it. It was interesting. @Ben Lamb got a shout out. One minute Mac was touting how guided hunters come back 5 times more often than non guided and how that is good for the rural economy. Then he was saying guided hunters are mostly average Joe's who scrimp and save for years to go on a guided hunt. That dog didn't hunt.

Glad to be living rent free in Mac's head.

Hi Mac! We know you're reading this.

 

[BigHornRam]

Glad to be living rent free in Mac's head.

Hi Mac! We know you're reading this.

You're living rent free in Aaron Flints head, Ben.

 

[Ben Lamb]

You're living rent free in Aaron Flints head, Ben.

Been that way for years. Confession time: I like Mac personally. It's his politics that I can't agree with.

 

[antlerradar]

I think Sportsman need to be carful when drafting the next Initiative. Doing away with special tags for Outfitters and the wealthy would be an easy sell. Start adding stuff like outlawing leasing and that sell gets much tougher. I 161 passed by a bit better than 6 1/2 percent, A good margin but not an overwhelming majority. The last thing Sportsman need is to get greedy and them have the Initiative fail.

On the other side. The proponents of SB143 need to be trying to figure out how they are going to improve there position by 7 percentage points in the next election or this law is going to be a two year wonder. Asking for more tags than you currently need is not a good start.

 

[Sytes]

I find it challenging to view from MOGA's shoes. I empathize with a couple points however, those points are facts of business life/market trends.

What really cranks my yank... junk such as landowner tags able to sell / transfer...

I fear Block Management may take a back seat and whittle. Incentives would increase significantly towards leased operations and the only hold outs w/ BMA's will be the great Montana resident land owners, based on principle of public access.

 

[Gerald Martin]

In my opinion, the manner in which outfitters and most residents approach “opportunity” as the most important aspect of wildlife management, removes FWP’s ability to address quality in any meaningful way.

With the current attitudes and management policies, quality is only going to be something that large landowners can effect on the land they own.

Any conversations that outfitters and most residents enter to discuss quality at the state level are just talk, because they aren’t ever willing to place the resource and principle above profit.

 

[ChaosOneZero]

In my opinion, the manner in which outfitters and most residents approach “opportunity” as the most important aspect of wildlife management, removes FWP’s ability to address quality in any meaningful way.

With the current attitudes and management policies, quality is only going to be something that large landowners can effect on the land they own.

Any conversations that outfitters and most residents enter to discuss quality at the state level are just talk, because they aren’t ever willing to place the resource and principle above profit.

Amen.

 

[BWALKER77]

In my opinion, the manner in which outfitters and most residents approach “opportunity” as the most important aspect of wildlife management, removes FWP’s ability to address quality in any meaningful way.

With the current attitudes and management policies, quality is only going to be something that large landowners can effect on the land they own.

Any conversations that outfitters and most residents enter to discuss quality at the state level are just talk, because they aren’t ever willing to place the resource and principle above profit.

At some point opportunity goes down with quality. We are well past that point on most public lands. That's unless taking a nature walk with a rifle and not seeing any game is your version of opportunity.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Guys, guys.

Guys.

We had it all wrong. The sponsor had it wrong, old Colton had it wrong and everyone who stood up and said that this was overturning I-161 were wrong when they said that this is overturning I-161. Mac says so.

I'm only 15 minutes in, but apparently everyone is wrong about this, except Mac. GMAFB.

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[Nameless Range]

Guys, guys.

Guys.

We had it all wrong. The sponsor had it wrong, old Colton had it wrong and everyone who stood up and said that this was overturning I-161 were wrong when they said that this is overturning I-161. Mac says so.

I'm only 15 minutes in, but apparently everyone is wrong about this, except Mac. GMAFB.

KBUL NEWS TALK 970 AM & 103.3 FM - Where Montana gets real news

KBUL NEWS TALK 970 AM & 103.3 FM KBUL radio, a Townsquare Media station, has the best news coverage in Billings, Montana.

newstalk955.com

Can't listen to it right now, but I did hear him say that yesterday, and I would be curious to hear his logic.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Can't listen to it right now, but I did hear him say that yesterday, and I would be curious to hear his logic.

It's circular, so be prepared for that.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Guys, guys.

Guys.

We had it all wrong. The sponsor had it wrong, old Colton had it wrong and everyone who stood up and said that this was overturning I-161 were wrong when they said that this is overturning I-161. Mac says so.

I'm only 15 minutes in, but apparently everyone is wrong about this, except Mac. GMAFB.

KBUL NEWS TALK 970 AM & 103.3 FM - Where Montana gets real news

KBUL NEWS TALK 970 AM & 103.3 FM KBUL radio, a Townsquare Media station, has the best news coverage in Billings, Montana.

newstalk955.com

But Ben, "it's just a nod"

 

[WIbiggame]

Quick Google search of Mr. Minard and these came up. I am sure those in know already know this but I think this thread has gained a lot of following.

Outfitters show sense of entitlement to Madison

Outfitters and guides of the Madison River, with a sense of entitlement to the Madison River and the fish in it, want Ennis to believe the town would dry up

missoulian.com

Outfitters and Guides Head Slams Bullock for Denying Proposal

Governor Steve Bullock last week rejected a proposal that would have generated over $15 million in rural commerce when he denied a joint Montana Outfitters and Guides Association and Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks proposal to issue additional non-resident licenses to unsuccessful applicants...

newstalkkgvo.com

 

[ChaosOneZero]

Guys, guys.

Guys.

We had it all wrong. The sponsor had it wrong, old Colton had it wrong and everyone who stood up and said that this was overturning I-161 were wrong when they said that this is overturning I-161. Mac says so.

I'm only 15 minutes in, but apparently everyone is wrong about this, except Mac. GMAFB.

KBUL NEWS TALK 970 AM & 103.3 FM - Where Montana gets real news

KBUL NEWS TALK 970 AM & 103.3 FM KBUL radio, a Townsquare Media station, has the best news coverage in Billings, Montana.

newstalk955.com

I would strongly encourage everyone to listen to this interview. There are some real gems in it, namely Mr Minard’s claims that SB 143 doesn’t seek to repeal or change I-161, but rather is intended to “build on it.”

 

[TheJason]

It's circular

So is the trajectory of a turd in the toilet.

 

[Crusty Buckeye]

Yep.

The best argument against this is that the people have already spoken, and what they want is an even playing field for everyone when it comes to hunting. This is about undermining the egalitarian ethic to hunting that Montana has steadfastly supported regardless of who was in the Governor's seat. This bill allows those who can afford it to purchase their way to the front of the line, which will absolutely hurt resident hunters as hunting becomes less & less viable for those who don't live in rural areas, and are forced to travel farther & farther afield to find a place to hunt.

Landowners have every right to lease to whomever they choose, like the Governor, who leases a large ranch. Outfitter guaranteed licenses do nothing to increase access for the resident hunter, and as we saw in the Breaks before the bundled LE permits, some counties were going over 90% outfitted while the public land schlub was left to fight for the scraps.

Small businesses across the nation struggle to get up and running. There are already tons of programs and tax incentives in place to help shoulder that burden from the SBA to eliminating the small business equipment tax. if those programs are not enough for outfitters, then they should try to advance options that lift all small business owners, rather than try to carve out their own welfare tags.

I don't know that I would abandon the economic argument. I see at as a way to drive a wedge between Montana business owners (Outfitters vs. all the mom and pop shops that serve NR DIY hunters). If I'm an airbnb owner in rural MT, a gas station/sporting goods/restaurant/grocery store owner that does a lot of business with NR DIY hunters during an otherwise slow time of the year...I'd be talking to my legislators. I don't know that squabbling over who brings in more money is going to be settled, so I'd stick with the point that the government is picking winners and losers and putting the interests of outfitters over all these other businesses. My $.02.

Another thought - maybe somebody clever can work some language into this bill to create loopholes for DIY guys. Would be very entrepreneurial if a licensed outfitter offered $25 or $50 guided hunts...if this bill passes in some form I'm sure me and several thousand of my closest friends would be happy to pay such a guide fee for access to the guide pool of tags

Yeap you are correct! Why because we can't vote them out. Bottom line all states only want NRs money at the end of the day to support their agencies but take it in the a** every time we turn around.
As far as I'm concerned I am changing my application strategies to exit this NR money game as it pertains to hunters personally. Hope to burn my elk points there this fall after that I'll only apply for M/S/G. Been weighing this for several years now. I'm dropping UT and NV this year and calling it quits with only a few points in both. Fishing is becoming my new fav.

Brownbear932008, that will ultimately be the end game. NR will reach the economic threshold and stop applying for any tags. The economic cycle will be broken. Then resident licensing will go through the roof, because there will be a need to make up for lost revenues. There are ways to disincentive commercial use of public and private land. If you want, I can show you how far this can go. We all are but a small minority in society. If we keep this sh*t show going, we will all become extinct.

 

[Eric Albus]

Brad W, the 7 multiplier is what the university study came up as to how many times Money changes hands.

 

[Eric Albus]

BigHornRam said:
Just caught the end of Montana Talks with Mac Minard on it. It was interesting. @Ben Lamb got a shout out. One minute Mac was touting how guided hunters come back 5 times more often than non guided and how that is good for the rural economy. Then he was saying guided hunters are mostly average Joe's who scrimp and save for years to go on a guided hunt. That dog didn't hunt.

Bighorn, Mac did not say that outfitted clients come back 5 times, he said the "return" of guided hunters is around 5 times the non-guided hunter. Meaning an outfitted client is spending 6500-8500 total expenditure, where as the average NR is spending around $1200(low end) to $2500 (high end) average.