Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[antlerradar]

But yet the amount of non resident tags hasn't changed right? So were has the added pressure you speak about came from? Also with block management and other properties added to public access there is way more land accessible today than in the 90s. Maybe it's just the spot you frequent the areas I've been in honestly I see no difference in hunter numbers as when I first went in 1999.

Now the game population is a different story. It has gotten worse with every trip I feel like. I think Montana needs to address and face the fact that people have moved there daily to worship the outdoors and take advantage of these resident otc opportunities for years. Until that happens and season structures, tag numbers etc change nothing is getting any better for anyone unless you have large private holdings to manage outside the states control mostly. Sorry that is a little off topic on this bill thread but it needs addressed by the state in all due respect.

Actually the number of NR tags has increased. @Ben Lamb did a good job of itemizing those tags a few pages back, except that he left out the increase in doe tags that many NR buy.

 

[8andcounting]

In all honesty you shouldn’t be able to hunt a 5 week rut hunt as a nonresident nearly every year. Residents shouldn’t either, I can see this isn’t going to change and the bill isn’t going to fix things, but it is funny to see people wanting things to get better and then freak out when you suggest taking any opportunity away. Montana is in a bad place and it’s not going to improve. Most states it takes a lot of years of applying or a lifetime to get a hunt with favorable season dates. It isn’t right for the wildlife but outfitters, nonresident diy guys, residents, and hunting egos that are trying to make a living off of hunting all continue to fight each other for a resource that can’t handle what we are doing.

I agree but nothing will really change for the better until Montana quits selling otc tags to residents for 5 week statewide season . Needs to be more broken down , smaller areas , more special permit areas , shorter seasons .

 

[8andcounting]

Actually the number of NR tags has increased. @Ben Lamb did a good job of itemizing those tags a few pages back, except that he left out the increase in doe tags that many NR buy.

Correct

 

[Pucky Freak]

The more I read through these posts, it seems like MOGA’s true opponent is “the future.” Mapping technology, the DIY YouTube boom, the rise of social networking across great distances, and better telecommunication infrastructure - all have made the big, open, wild, untamed American West much more accessible, navigable, understandable, and “close” for NR hunters. Fewer hunters every year need, or think they need, a fully-guided hunt. The troop of 2nd and 3rd generation MT guides sees the writing on the wall. They want to prop up an obsolete business by retaining older, wealthier clients who are less likely to make the DIY or access fee jump than today’s 30-somethings and 40-somethings. They need these mostly older hunters to rebook every year to keep their business model humming along. The future of guiding is more closely represented by operations in AZ. MOGA is jumping on an apparent political opportunity to plant a flag on a melting iceberg to keep the old model alive for just a little longer... A harder task, but one I’d argue better serves everyone involved, is to look at ways to evolve your own business model to match the needs and wants of hunters now and over the next 10 years. Very little government intervention is needed to pull that off.

Before I stumbled on HT a couple years ago, I talked to many people about elk hunting and received piles of misinformation: “It’s prohibitively expensive”, “you’ll need a guide”, “it’s not the kind of hunt that can be done DIY”, “You got to have pack animals”, etc. I had written off going elk hunting any time in the near future due to these perceived barriers. But as every year passes, it gets harder and harder to hide the truth about how doable elk hunting is for a huge segment of the hunting public. Look at the acceleration of PP buying and elk tag applications across the West. Many young ambitious DIY hunters of today will become old ambitious DIY hunters of tomorrow, a trend which organizations like MOGA want to get out in front of ASAP.

 

[Walkalot]

Sounds like a kingmen bill to me. I think fair thing would be. Understanding that hunting is a business and most resident or non resident hunters will never hunt private lands. I would say 20% of non resident tags guarenteed to outfitters. But with that, they can only harvest there animal on private land. Iam a 5th generation montana guy but reality is hunting is changing. Alot.

 

[devon deer]

Before I stumbled on HT a couple years ago, I talked to many people about elk hunting and received piles of misinformation: “It’s prohibitively expensive”, “you’ll need a guide”, “it’s not the kind of hunt that can be done DIY”, “You got to have pack animals”, etc. I had written off going elk hunting any time in the near future due to these perceived barriers. But as every year passes, it gets harder and harder to hide the truth about how doable elk hunting is for a huge segment of the hunting public. Look at the acceleration of PP buying and elk tag applications across the West. Many young ambitious DIY hunters of today will become old ambitious DIY hunters of tomorrow, a trend which organizations like MOGA want to get out in front of ASAP.

The exact same experience of mine, I can't say Big Fin raised my interest in hunting Montana as I already had visited with my family, and then with a friend fly fishing, whilst there I got interested.
Like you, I did some research and it was coming up 'guided hunts' all the time, way out of my budget.
But then 10 years ago I discovered this forum and Randys videos, and it opened up all kinds of 'in' budget hunting possibilities.
Many members on here helped me initially, but then I was confident in my own abilities and did quite well.
Whilst I was as you described, an ambitious hunter, I wasn't exactly young!

I have only come across one bunch of outfitters whilst out Elk Hunting, sadly it was a negative one.

Still waiting on an email from the committee.

Cheers

Richard

 

[brownbear932008]

Actually the number of NR tags has increased. @Ben Lamb did a good job of itemizing those tags a few pages back, except that he left out the increase in doe tags that many NR buy.

You are correct I failed to think about those other add on opportunities that has been passed over the years since I've been in that game. I was only thinking of the combos.
I apologize if I sound a little disgusted but truth is I am. I cut my teeth on Montana as far as Western hunting goes many years ago. It's a damn shame what has continued to happen there with all the politics and severe mis management on a level that is beyond belief to me. Every bit of it over over a dollar. Any government agency that allows itself to show favoritism to any private interest is over stepping its bounds in my opinion. That's not capitalism it's welfare and to a point socialism.
There is no doubt in my mind many of the outfitters/guides posting here are great people and I know they run great services. But please ask yourself in the grand scheme of things at the end of the day is your fight really the right thing to do for this sport? Throw money out the door and seriously think about it!

 

[VikingsGuy]

The more I read through these posts, it seems like MOGA’s true opponent is “the future.” Mapping technology, the DIY YouTube boom, the rise of social networking across great distances, and better telecommunication infrastructure - all have made the big, open, wild, untamed American West much more accessible, navigable, understandable, and “close” for NR hunters. Fewer hunters every year need, or think they need, a fully-guided hunt. The troop of 2nd and 3rd generation MT guides sees the writing on the wall. They want to prop up an obsolete business by retaining older, wealthier clients who are less likely to make the DIY or access fee jump than today’s 30-somethings and 40-somethings. They need these mostly older hunters to rebook every year to keep their business model humming along. The future of guiding is more closely represented by operations in AZ. MOGA is jumping on an apparent political opportunity to plant a flag on a melting iceberg to keep the old model alive for just a little longer... A harder task, but one I’d argue better serves everyone involved, is to look at ways to evolve your own business model to match the needs and wants of hunters now and over the next 10 years. Very little government intervention is needed to pull that off.

Before I stumbled on HT a couple years ago, I talked to many people about elk hunting and received piles of misinformation: “It’s prohibitively expensive”, “you’ll need a guide”, “it’s not the kind of hunt that can be done DIY”, “You got to have pack animals”, etc. I had written off going elk hunting any time in the near future due to these perceived barriers. But as every year passes, it gets harder and harder to hide the truth about how doable elk hunting is for a huge segment of the hunting public. Look at the acceleration of PP buying and elk tag applications across the West. Many young ambitious DIY hunters of today will become old ambitious DIY hunters of tomorrow, a trend which organizations like MOGA want to get out in front of ASAP.

One of the best posts so far.

 

[lastlight]

I agree but nothing will really change for the better until Montana quits selling otc tags to residents for 5 week statewide season . Needs to be more broken down , smaller areas , more special permit areas , shorter seasons .

Just curious, what is your opinion based off of? My Montana friends enjoy the long season mainly because they are able to fill their freezer every year with multiple elk tags in the household. Elk are robust in the state, I dont see a reason to change to shorter seasons like CO. I've only hunted MT once in 2017 on a combo tag in early November. Finding game and low hunting pressure was not a problem, but that was only one trip. Hell in CA I can hunt deer for 3 months bow/rifle. I would hate to have short seasons on anything in my home state, even if I was somehow guaranteed to fill my tag.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@Gerald Martin something to keep in mind as your discussing giving your mouse a cookie, I’m gonna need @Oak to confirm as I always screw this up, but I believe the Colorado guides association was advocating for a 50/50, R/NR tag allocation.

In this case I think the slippery slope is in fact very slippery.

 

[Oak]

@Gerald Martin something to keep in mind as your discussing giving your mouse a cookie, I’m gonna need @Oak to confirm as I always screw this up, but I believe the Colorado guides association was advocating for a 50/50, R/NR tag allocation.

In this case I think the slippery slope is in fact very slippery.

Yes, see this post.

News from this week's CPW Sportspeople's Round Table meetings.

As an appointed rep to the Roundtable I am determined to share news from the group with online constituents. FYI, the Roundtable is a gathering of interested anglers, hunters, trappers that advise CPW. The group meets formally 2x/year, and informally as warranted. As an advisory group, most...

www.hunttalk.com

 

[Gerald Martin]

@Gerald Martin something to keep in mind as your discussing giving your mouse a cookie, I’m gonna need @Oak to confirm as I always screw this up, but I believe the Colorado guides association was advocating for a 50/50, R/NR tag allocation.

In this case I think the slippery slope is in fact very slippery.

My cookie would seek to ensure that outfitters are limited to 25% of the tags instead of the 45% they say they currently get without guaranteed tags.

Everyone likes to throw percentages around that benefit themselves. I think it’s time that DIY’ers find a pet politician who is willing to go with the numbers over the special interests of a minority of the voters.
Two can play this game.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

My cookie would seek to ensure that outfitters are limited to 25% of the tags instead of the 45% they say they currently get without guaranteed tags.

Everyone likes to throw percentages around that benefit themselves. I think it’s time that DIY’ers find a pet politician who is willing to go with the numbers over the special interests of a minority of the voters.
Two can play this game.

MT provides what ~18k tags to NR?
Your suggesting that 25% ~4500 are allocated to guides?

CO provides 71,000 tags to NR, CO guides said that at that rate they can’t make money and wanted the state to change that to 100,000 (50/50 split) or slightly less than the total number of MT elk tags sold that’s a hell of a cookie

1.slightly hyperbolic due to the nuances of the draw system, sue me.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Just curious, what is your opinion based off of? My Montana friends enjoy the long season mainly because they are able to fill their freezer every year with multiple elk tags in the household. Elk are robust in the state, I dont see a reason to change to shorter seasons like CO. I've only hunted MT once in 2017 on a combo tag in early November. Finding game and low hunting pressure was not a problem, but that was only one trip. Hell in CA I can hunt deer for 3 months bow/rifle. I would hate to have short seasons on anything in my home state, even if I was somehow guaranteed to fill my tag.

Robust...

Colorado has around as many elk as MT, WY, and UT combined... yes shorter seasons but CO also provides more than 50% of all NR elk opportunity in the country.

 

[TOGIE]

MT provides what ~18k tags to NR?
Your suggesting that 25% ~4500 are allocated to guides?

CO provides 71,000 tags to NR, CO guides said that at that rate they can’t make money and wanted the state to change that to 100,000 (50/50 split) or slightly less than the total number of MT elk tags sold that’s a hell of a cookie

1.slightly hyperbolic due to the nuances of the draw system, sue me.

not to mention as many tags as there is paper to print tags for outfitters during 2nd and 3rd season

i can't, won't, and will never have empathy for the so-called plight of colorado outfitters. okay that was also hyperbolic. maybe i can find a drop in my heart somewhere

 

[The Hedgehog]

I’m in for reply number NINE HUNDRED..

 

[BWALKER77]

The more I read through these posts, it seems like MOGA’s true opponent is “the future.” Mapping technology, the DIY YouTube boom, the rise of social networking across great distances, and better telecommunication infrastructure - all have made the big, open, wild, untamed American West much more accessible, navigable, understandable, and “close” for NR hunters. Fewer hunters every year need, or think they need, a fully-guided hunt. The troop of 2nd and 3rd generation MT guides sees the writing on the wall. They want to prop up an obsolete business by retaining older, wealthier clients who are less likely to make the DIY or access fee jump than today’s 30-somethings and 40-somethings. They need these mostly older hunters to rebook every year to keep their business model humming along. The future of guiding is more closely represented by operations in AZ. MOGA is jumping on an apparent political opportunity to plant a flag on a melting iceberg to keep the old model alive for just a little longer... A harder task, but one I’d argue better serves everyone involved, is to look at ways to evolve your own business model to match the needs and wants of hunters now and over the next 10 years. Very little government intervention is needed to pull that off.

Before I stumbled on HT a couple years ago, I talked to many people about elk hunting and received piles of misinformation: “It’s prohibitively expensive”, “you’ll need a guide”, “it’s not the kind of hunt that can be done DIY”, “You got to have pack animals”, etc. I had written off going elk hunting any time in the near future due to these perceived barriers. But as every year passes, it gets harder and harder to hide the truth about how doable elk hunting is for a huge segment of the hunting public. Look at the acceleration of PP buying and elk tag applications across the West. Many young ambitious DIY hunters of today will become old ambitious DIY hunters of tomorrow, a trend which organizations like MOGA want to get out in front of ASAP.

Lots of truth to this post.
If I were to go on another guided hunt it would be for access to a particular area, not for the services of guide.

 

[Clockwork]

This is my first post on the forum due to hearing about this on youtube and from gohunt,

I've been talking to some cousins that live up in Montana about this as they've been wanting me to come up and hunt with them soon. They are all against it and I do hope it doesn't pass. (reading post posts to see outcome on Tuesday)

 

[Dave N]

This is my first post on the forum due to hearing about this on youtube and from gohunt,

I've been talking to some cousins that live up in Montana about this as they've been wanting me to come up and hunt with them soon. They are all against it and I do hope it doesn't pass. (reading post posts to see outcome on Tuesday)

Welcome aboard!

 

[lastlight]

Robust...

Colorado has around as many elk as MT, WY, and UT combined... yes shorter seasons but CO also provides more than 50% of all NR elk opportunity in the country.

View attachment 172810

And in the Colorado elk woods over crowding is usually more so than Wy and MT combined. I hear UT is pretty bad too but I’ve never been hunting there.

Is your idea with one week seasons to limit people or total tags?