Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[Big Shooter]

Your not “the industry”. He stated you are “in” the industry.

And your couch on the showroom floor…. I’ve yet to see any furniture store cry to legislators to make sure that a certain percentage of their couches, “elk tags” or kitchen tables, “deer tags” or hell…. entire room ensembles, “combo tags” were only allowed to be purchased from them. No yard sales, no IKEA online, nope. The only way to purchase said furniture is from this government mandated outlet…….. hmmmmm sounds like overreaching government and socialism to me.

Why are you still under the impression that the only way to get a license is through an outfitter? We all know that’s not the case.

 

[SAJ-99]

This thread may reach 300 pages, with the lawsuit that MWF, APF, and others are rumored to ramping up, both receive funding from the likes of Geo. Soros and Wyss, ultra left wing socialists.

Thought the first 150 pages were good reading, hang on to a rock.

“Ultra”. Ramping up the fear narrative. Just being left-wing socialist doesn’t scare people enough?

back to the topic, anything you want to share that came from the recent MOGA meeting? Any news outreach plans to solve these problems?

 

[SAJ-99]

Why are you still under the impression that the only way to get a license is through an outfitter? We all know that’s not the case.

No, just easier.

 

[Derek44]

Why are you still under the impression that the only way to get a license is through an outfitter? We all know that’s not the case.

Yes, just easier, and let’s be honest, we all are also pretty sure that this is just the start. After outfitted clients still don’t draw in a year or two because of the 3 point maximum rule, MOGA will once again be crying on the Capitol with their hands out for more tags

 

[Gerald Martin]

Yes, just easier, and let’s be honest, we all are also pretty sure that this is just the start. After outfitted clients still don’t draw in a year or two because of the 3 point maximum rule, MOGA will once again be crying on the Capitol with their hands out for more tags

The construction industry brings in more money to Montana communities than big game outfitters do each year.

Next legislative session, I plan to be at the front of the line asking for guaranteed licenses to distribute to our customers as a way of ensuring that they built their dream vacation homes in MT instead of taking their money to a different state where they can get NR tags easier.

 

[Gerald Martin]

We will encourage them to book with outfitters if they want to so outfitters should appreciate our efforts to alleviate any concerns about how it might make it more difficult for NR hunters who don’t want to build a second home yet want to hunt.
If I fail in having our industry receive preferential access to the 17,500 general tags, I will probably just ask for additional tags to be added to accommodate our wishes since the price of building materials is so volatile and it’s making our business models less predictable. It would probably mean less than 3-5000 more tags issued.

The nice thing is that most of our clients will have enough money to lease private property for hunting so it won’t crowd public land.

In fact any additional pressure will probably move some cows off of private to public so the resident hunters can pop a cow if they depend on the meat.

 

[Big Shooter]

“Ultra”. Ramping up the fear narrative. Just being left-wing socialist doesn’t scare people enough?

back to the topic, anything you want to share that came from the recent MOGA meeting? Any news outreach plans to solve these problems?

MOGA had a meeting recently? Dammit! I must have missed that one!

 

[SAJ-99]

MOGA had a meeting recently? Dammit! I must have missed that one!

It was on the calendar earlier this year for June. Might not have happened. I get it, schedules change and such. We just blame Covid and move on. Found it interesting that there is a link for "Emergency Issuance of licenses" on MOGA website. Covid gets the blame again (or credit in this case). But if you follow the links down the rabbit hole, you find MOGA's summary. I give them credit for creativity in describing the situation.

 

[Lyfter1013]

I didn’t realize I was the industry

and pray tell how does a license “guarantee a revenue stream”

a license or the ability to secure license does not guarantee that anybody wants my services, again I will liken license to a couch on a showroom floor. There must be first a willing buyer.

I’m just curious do you actually believe the bullshit that you say (or type in this case)? You can’t be that ignorant to not see how this is a government handout to outfitters and their clients.

 

[Eric Albus]

Gerald,

I can see your point, and you made it well. There is only one flaw to it.

The flaw comes from the fact anyone wishing to use your service can do so without first having to enter a lottery to gain privilege of so doing. You are also not limited in the number of clients you can serve. I concede we are dealing with a resource held in public trust, therefore there must be confines upon the industry.

The only argument anyone can make is that it’s not fair to “hunter Dan” from Kalamazoo who wants to DIY. So, we wind up again at the economic argument. Economically it makes sense for every NR to have to use an outfitter. This model works for Canada, the NWT’s and Indian Reservations.
Why is it nobody complains about the aforementioned? Give a Montana Outfitter a leg up on the average NR and everyone wants to cut our heads off.

 

[Carnage2011]

Gerald,

I can see your point, and you made it well. There is only one flaw to it.

The flaw comes from the fact anyone wishing to use your service can do so without first having to enter a lottery to gain privilege of so doing. You are also not limited in the number of clients you can serve. I concede we are dealing with a resource held in public trust, therefore there must be confines upon the industry.

The only argument anyone can make is that it’s not fair to “hunter Dan” from Kalamazoo who wants to DIY. So, we wind up again at the economic argument. Economically it makes sense for every NR to have to use an outfitter. This model works for Canada, the NWT’s and Indian Reservations.
Why is it nobody complains about the aforementioned? Give a Montana Outfitter a leg up on the average NR and everyone wants to cut our heads off.

No one complains about those because they are in different countries. Indian reservations are considered sovereign nations. That’s not an apples to apples comparison. Making a living off a public resource comes with challenges. The challenges for outfitters varies based on many things….species, private/public, trophy quality, etc. One thing to keep in mind is not everything is about economics. If hunting revolved around economics then it would truly be a rich mans game. Even with MT’s poor management of deer and elk in general areas, outfitters would be able to demand a premium for the opportunity to hunt, and that’s not right. There is a fine line between charging prices that are reasonable for NR tags and pricing out the majority of people.

I often hear people talk about the sense of entitlement from younger generations, and I agree that it exists, but it’s not exclusive to a certain demographic. Right now we have local ranchers claiming they should keep their water on because they have “water rights” as the ditch rider tells them “there is no water to have rights on.” Outfitters thinking their clients should have first priority on tags seems to be similar…entitlement.

I’ve said it before but I have gained respect for Rod and Eric simply for sticking around and voicing their opinion, while knowing they will get grilled about it. However, comparing NR options to a foreign country is a terrible argument. This is the USA!

 

[Carnage2011]

I see outfitting like any other business. If you are the best at what you do, people will find you.
Look at DC Outfitters in Utah or Clay Bundy in AZ…they don’t have anyone booked until after the draw because of their system. Every year they book clients based on their reputation and ability to find/kill trophy animals. If an outfitter wants stability they should improve their operation. Yes, they rely on a lottery. Just like every other western state does!

 

[golfer]

Gerald,

I can see your point, and you made it well. There is only one flaw to it.

The flaw comes from the fact anyone wishing to use your service can do so without first having to enter a lottery to gain privilege of so doing. You are also not limited in the number of clients you can serve. I concede we are dealing with a resource held in public trust, therefore there must be confines upon the industry.

Eric- not sure how you don’t see outfitting as any other business. Construction included. Businesses such as construction, office supplies, auto body repair shops, etc. can be seen as a lottery. Your going to disagree, but these businesses have to take time to put a bid together and hope their reputation is good to get the work or their price beats their competitors out. If not they don’t get the work. Nothing is guaranteed here. If they bid poorly or their reputations suck- it’s simple they go out of business. The government doesn’t come in and say aw shucks we feel for you here is some garunteed business.

I understand there is a need for outfitters but for crying out loud get off the lottery point. If your good you’ll have business, if not I’m sure you’ll figure out something else.

 

[Big Shooter]

Eric- not sure how you don’t see outfitting as any other business. Construction included. Businesses such as construction, office supplies, auto body repair shops, etc. can be seen as a lottery. Your going to disagree, but these businesses have to take time to put a bid together and hope their reputation is good to get the work or their price beats their competitors out. If not they don’t get the work. Nothing is guaranteed here. If they bid poorly or their reputations suck- it’s simple they go out of business. The government doesn’t come in and say aw shucks we feel for you here is some garunteed business.

I understand there is a need for outfitters but for crying out loud get off the lottery point. If your good you’ll have business, if not I’m sure you’ll figure out something else.

Both Golfer and Carnage have great points and are great at explaining their views…….but…….Eric is correct when he brings up the fact that the “lottery” is a valid concern. An outfitter can be the best of the best, but if the tags don’t end up in the hands of a client, of any kind, and they all end up in the hands of DIY hunters, it’s pretty hard to have an industry.

 

[Irrelevant]

Both Golfer and Carnage have great points and are great at explaining their views…….but…….Eric is correct when he brings up the fact that the “lottery” is a valid concern. An outfitter can be the best of the best, but if the tags don’t end up in the hands of a client, of any kind, and they all end up in the hands of DIY hunters, it’s pretty hard to have an industry.

Pretty hard for a mechanic to make a living unless cars break down. Sometimes they don't, that's it a risk. Look at a home builder, what happens if the mortgages industry implements policies that tank the market? Then he's out of clients and he can't do anything about it. That's just a risk, everyone has to take some, and often they have no control over them.

This is basic, VERY basic, economics.

 

[Lyfter1013]

Gerald,

I can see your point, and you made it well. There is only one flaw to it.

The flaw comes from the fact anyone wishing to use your service can do so without first having to enter a lottery to gain privilege of so doing. You are also not limited in the number of clients you can serve. I concede we are dealing with a resource held in public trust, therefore there must be confines upon the industry.

The only argument anyone can make is that it’s not fair to “hunter Dan” from Kalamazoo who wants to DIY. So, we wind up again at the economic argument. Economically it makes sense for every NR to have to use an outfitter. This model works for Canada, the NWT’s and Indian Reservations.
Why is it nobody complains about the aforementioned? Give a Montana Outfitter a leg up on the average NR and everyone wants to cut our heads off.

Why do you think that others opportunity should be limited because you want people to have to pay for your service? You chose to be an outfitter. If you cannot pay your bills and attract enough clients based upon how the system works well then maybe you chose the wrong career path. If the government has to step in to give you a “leg up” (your words) in your business well then your business plan or model is flawed.

 

[idahohuntr]

On the lottery theme...perhaps the question outfitters should ask themselves is why in Montana are they not competitive enough to attract people who randomly draw NR tags? Do they not offer enough value to the consumer? People are not strictly DIY vs. Guided hunters....I am a DIY guy mostly...but if I saw the right value I might hire an outfitter. I know lots of people like this and it's no different than any other industry. I could try and build my own home, but I've found it to be a great value to have a general contractor build it for me. I could change my own oil, but I find great value in having a mechanic do it for me. Why aren't outfitters able to attract business outside government handouts (i.e., tags)? Wouldn't a more free-market approach say outfitters should change their business model if they can't survive without government handouts?

 

[Gerald Martin]

Eric,
It’s not personal, it’s just business. Whether outfitters are affected by lottery draw odds or not is irrelevant.

The precedent has been set that businesses are going to be prioritized over equal opportunity for all applicants to access public trust resources.

Finding customers for our company’s services isn’t always going to be as easy as it is now. We have way more invested in company infrastructure and employ more people than the average outfitter. We also generate way more income. Therefore we should advance to the front of the line.
If I don’t for my company, someone else will for theirs.

Good luck with economic survival of the fittest. I hope you do well. For the outfitters that get steamrolled, remember your industry paved the way and set the precedent.

Who knows? Maybe I will be able to outbid you for ranches you currently lease for your business. I know you have done a great job with managing your grounds. I’m guessing some of my clients will pay a premium for access there.

 

[SAJ-99]

but if the tags don’t end up in the hands of a client, of any kind, and they all end up in the hands of DIY hunters, it’s pretty hard to have an industry.

But you are providing a service above what a DIY'er can do (allegedly). After people DIY a few years and come home empty handed they might think your service is worth it. Your target market should be anyone with a tag, resident or non-resident. If you have better land leased for hunting, a lot of people may find the service attractive. Unfortunately, you continue to focus on your repeat customers and their increasingly difficult odds in drawing a tag every year. How about limiting the number of outfitter licenses MT issues. That would be less competition. And crack down on those outfitters operating illegally. I think we would be behind you 100% on those issues. Guaranteed tags for "your clients" is a tough one for most us to accept

 

[Big Shooter]

But you are providing a service above what a DIY'er can do (allegedly). After people DIY a few years and come home empty handed they might think your service is worth it. Your target market should be anyone with a tag, resident or non-resident. If you have better land leased for hunting, a lot of people may find the service attractive. Unfortunately, you continue to focus on your repeat customers and their increasingly difficult odds in drawing a tag every year. How about limiting the number of outfitter licenses MT issues. That would be less competition. And crack down on those outfitters operating illegally. I think we would be behind you 100% on those issues. Guaranteed tags for "your clients" is a tough one for most us to accept

I would be 1000% with you on limiting the number of outfitter licenses! We (MOGA) have discussed this many times. There was a brief moratorium on said licenses years back, before I started. Eric could weigh in on this as well, but I believe it got reversed because of a Right to Work law. I/we feel that they should be just like a liquor license and no more will be given out. Strictly my opinion.