Irrelevant
Well-known member
I've always thought the same thing about any of the raffle hunts that only allow you to buy some super expensive tag (i.e. WY), which is why I've never bought a ticket.
Non-resident Hunting and the North American Model
- Thread starter JLS
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Deleted member 28227
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Yeah totally disagree. If I drew a Tok tag I would say to my wife hey look at this cool piece of paper I got, and then stick it in a drawer and never think about it again.
If you told me that I drew a tag that was good in any unit that wasn't a draw, and I could go unguided. I'd be going sheep hunting.
There were 9423 apps for that area in the main draw, you can apply 6 times, so 1570 total applicants likely. Of those I would imagine most are residents, let's say 90/10. So that's 157 people who can afford it. Who knows how much they would spend. Let's say $1,000 that's 157,000.
If you made it anyone who won could DIY a hunt I bet you could get 5,000 to apply and if they only paid $100 you would raise $500,000.
@Oak could probably tell me if my math is stupid/totally unrealistic based on his raffle, but I think you get the general idea.
I think the only people using all their choices for a single hunt code would be a NR. So Most likely there are way more single applicants that.
Further more considering that the only NRs that are likely sheep hunting already know they are going on their own dime one way or another because NR quotas in the lower 48 make it a pipe dream and the money suck. So considering they're paying for it anyway i am sure a lot of hunters like myself know with a TOK tag in hand they can hunt sheep on one of the best tags avaible at 2/3 the price of canada.
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Deleted member 28227
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Right but I have a $100 dollars to throw at raffle tickets.
What am I going to choice, CO sheep, that I can hunt DIY where the whole trip might run me $1500.
or AK where I'm going to have to pony up $20k.
The entire point of the raffle is to get as many people to jump on board as possible, that's how they work.
The nature of AK sheep hunting is entirely predicated on it being for the very wealthy and thereby reducing demand. They would probably make more money actioning off the tag.
If it quacks like a duck, call it a duck and sell it as a duck. The point isn't opportunity the point is making money for wildlife management.
By your logic then all the tags should be free market if the only point is to make money.
personally right now I have way more money then opportunity, and i am sure that i am not alone. furthermore I see my opportunity shrinking more and more each year so I dont see any of that changing anytime soon .
I purchased tickets for both tags, in Co and AK.
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Deleted member 28227
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Raffle tags, Gov tags. These are exceptions, these tags have one specific goal.
My thought when I saw the email last night was "nice, but if I could afford an AK sheep hunt I would just book one." The fact that there is no limit to the number a person can buy means they will make a lot of money. I like raffles because they theoretically give the "little guys and gals" a chance. I'm not sure there will be many of those non-residents playing a raffle that will end up costing them another $20,000 if they win.
I like the 25 ticket limit and the $25 maximum ticket price CO imposes on the raffle big game licenses here. I bust enough people trying to game the system each year by making multiple purchases totaling >25 to know that it costs us conservation revenue. But it keeps the odds a little bit better for the hundreds who throw $25 at the raffle and cross their fingers. Most other states don't limit the number. You might be surprised at the dollar figures being thrown at those raffles by some people. I know that ID has sold $30,000+ in sheep tickets to a single person in the past.
I think WY would improve revenue on their Super Tags if an NR didn't have to purchase the tag after winning.
A question for the AK guys: how many outfitters are permitted in the area where the AK sheep raffle tag is valid? Are those outfitters booked up? It seems like the state would work more closely with the outfitters on something like this where access to the service is more restricted.
Just a hodgepodge of thoughts because I don't have much time now......
I like the 25 ticket limit and the $25 maximum ticket price CO imposes on the raffle big game licenses here. I bust enough people trying to game the system each year by making multiple purchases totaling >25 to know that it costs us conservation revenue. But it keeps the odds a little bit better for the hundreds who throw $25 at the raffle and cross their fingers. Most other states don't limit the number. You might be surprised at the dollar figures being thrown at those raffles by some people. I know that ID has sold $30,000+ in sheep tickets to a single person in the past.
I think WY would improve revenue on their Super Tags if an NR didn't have to purchase the tag after winning.
A question for the AK guys: how many outfitters are permitted in the area where the AK sheep raffle tag is valid? Are those outfitters booked up? It seems like the state would work more closely with the outfitters on something like this where access to the service is more restricted.
Just a hodgepodge of thoughts because I don't have much time now......
Originally, that was the goal. And I don't question that. some individual group still have that as their primary motivation. however on the whole the raffle/auction/political handout tag industry has morphed into something else.
Wildabeest
Well-known member
Sorry that your money can’t buy you everything. Must suck to be you.
I may be wrong, but I don't think that was the point he was making. Only that there are plenty of people with the money to book a sheep hunt if they got lucky and won a tag for an area with horrendous draw odds.
Thanks Oak
Wildabeest
Well-known member
My sincere apologies if I misinterpreted your meaning @Trial153.
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Deleted member 28227
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We can work out this all in person, Oak is going to send me that sheep tag in a bit and ya'll are invited.
freely given, freely accepted. No worries
Andrew Posewitz
Well-known member
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- Aug 8, 2020
- Messages
- 28
First and foremost, thanks for asking about my Dad’s view. I suspect you didn’t know this, but you asked the question on March 6th, which was his birthday, the first since he passed. I was trolling this site for no good reason, which I am pretty new to and stumbled on your question, I now know the reason I was trolling the site, he wanted to speak (he always did)! And since you met him, you likely are aware the answer is lengthy, although I will spare the Roosevelt parts (which should be funny to anyone who ever met him).
I will do my best to channel him, but suspect some of my own thinking will undoubtedly bleed in to the opinion.
I think he would say this:
- There is no short answer to this question. This is the only example in human history where the exploiter of a natural resource was smart enough and had enough will to try to replace it. This kind of self-reflection and honesty is rarer today than it used to be and is inspired by great leaders, something we currently lack in policymakers. He loved his role within the population of people that pulled this off and believed that all this was accomplished because it involved people at the grass roots level, not the policymakers. Remember who works for who.
- Take a step back and think what it is, it is a social contract between hunters, self-rule governments and the non-hunting public that allowed for the restoration of wild game and an ethical guide for how to harvest this game on a fair chase sustainable basis. Sustainable means no end, don’t ever give up.
- When you land on “how to pay,” you are trying to answer two questions at once, don’t do that. First question is do you believe in the North American Model? If yes, all stop. If you don’t believe in the NAM, the rest of this is not for you.
- How you pay for it is a different question. It is easy to get derailed here. What we pay for as an individual, as a hunter, as part of an organization, as part of a society or part of being governed could pay for this 10,000 times over. Any time someone tells you they really like your idea but we can’t afford it, is really saying they don’t like your idea enough to find a way to pay for it. It’s just about mobilizing the right people and making sure we don’t lose their way. This is true for whatever distraction gets thrown at you. Do you believe in the model or not, always go back to the answer to that question, it will help you navigate any rabbit hole you get sent down.
- Resist any attempt at commercialization, even a nip around the edges should be avoided at all costs. Remember the original death of all wildlife was greed, that greed isn’t and won’t ever be gone. If someone can get rich off our 130-year investment in recovering the wild things they will. This is very very important. All the tenets are inter-related but this one is the immovable object.
- Resist every effort the greedy make to divide you. The resident vs non-resident is an example and exhausts us. One of the tenets of the NAM is there are no borders. That should apply to us as well. The exception to this is those among us who don’t want to adhere to the NAM. These disputes erupt over limited resources and have their root cause in allowing greed to guide policy and not scientific methods to allocate wildlife and tags. Focus your energy at those diverging from science as their guide, they have chosen greed and are the root cause of your grief, not other hunters who will find fairness eventually.
- This will only end when the people decide it will end. We will have dark days; we will have bright days. Don’t let the despair of the dark days get you, let it recharge you and remind yourself that this is for the next generation. In many ways, we currently live at the Zenith of the NAM’s success and because of that, people want to profit from it. Take comfort in that there are not two sides to every story, our story has a right side and a wrong side and we are on the right side. History hasn’t lionized the commercial hunters of the late 1800s and it won't lionize those seeking to destroy it today, history has lionized those who brought it back and will do the same for those who defend it today. No one remembers the name of the manager who proposed the Allenspur dam on the Yellowstone, but they remember those who pushed back. Decide what you want history to say 100-years from now, and then do that thing.
- Lastly he would say, don’t forget the Buffalo, it was the most notable leave behind and he wanted everyone to remember that. One of his last writings was imploring us to find a way, let’s find that way.
Carl 9.3x62
Well-known member
The nice thing about WY's super tags is that it is completely exclusive of the regular draw and preference points. You could theoretically draw three bighorn sheep tags in WY in one year. And you pick wherever you want to hunt.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
Sure. But a NR tag in WY cost me $2,320 plus 1/2 of everything I own. And that's a little too rich for my blood.
We have similar ones here in WA, but the tag is free, there' no limit to the # of tickets you can get. The winner of the mule deer tag spends about 100k on tickets each year.
Carl 9.3x62
Well-known member
Fair enough
Wildabeest
Well-known member
@Andrew Posewitz, thank you for that posting. Truly inspirational. Although you say you are channeling your dad’s thoughts, it’s obvious that it was from your own heart.
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Deleted member 28227
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So apologies in advance, I have at times a pathological desire to be right, I can't help myself.
AK publishes the entire list of draw results in .pdf. I pulled the list converted it to excel and created pivot tables.
The sheep tag sold is equivalent to DS203 and DS204, so you combine those two, remove duplicates (those who applied for both hunts), then remove AK residents then remove those that won therefore already hold the tag. This gives you NR who applied for the tag already, but didn't win.
155
So I was 2 off my b
... yeah I'll see myself out... sorry for being that guy.
