Non-resident Hunting and the North American Model

[Trial153]

So apologies in advance, I have at times a pathological desire to be right, I can't help myself.

AK publishes the entire list of draw results in .pdf. I pulled the list converted it to excel and created pivot tables.

The sheep tag sold is equivalent to DS203 and DS204, so you combine those two, remove duplicates (those who applied for both hunts), then remove AK residents then remove those that won therefore already hold the tag. This gives you NR who applied for the tag already, but didn't win.

155

So I was 2 off my b


... yeah I'll see myself out... sorry for being that guy.

Your still assuming that the only people that would by ticket are those that applied. And not factoring in that applying has 205 NR license fee plus the application fee.
Pretty sure the all Canadians except Yukon residents are subject to the 650 alien fee...but even if not.
Your looking at a minimum of 235 to get your name in that hat for the regular draw.
Verses a 20 dollar raffle ticket.

I bet Canadian residents alone will beat your 150 number.
Add in all the Alaska residents that struck out on their sheep draw...they will make a killing

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Your still assuming that the only people that would by ticket are those that applied. And not factoring in that applying has 205 NR license fee plus the application fee.
Pretty sure the all Canadians except Yukon residents are subject to the 650 alien fee...but even if not.
Your looking at a minimum of 235 to get your name in that hat for the regular draw.
Verses a 20 dollar raffle ticket.

I bet Canadian residents alone will beat your 150 number.
Add in all the Alaska residents that struck out on their sheep draw...they will make a killing

Totally agree on the Residents.

I find the comparison to DC475 interesting. Specifically, 789 NR applied for a hunt any residents can do every year.

 

[Trial153]

Totally agree on the Residents.

I find the comparison to DC475 interesting. Specifically, 789 NR applied for a hunt any residents can do every year.

why does that surprise you?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

why does that surprise you?

It’s not surprising, more the point is if you made a 13E or 20A ( west) dall sheep tag DIY for NR you would have more people buy tickets than a Tok tag guided.

 

[Trial153]

It’s not surprising, more the point is if you made a 13E or 20A ( west) dall sheep tag DIY for NR you would have more people buy tickets than a Tok tag guided.

Maybe they don't want be hypocritical and circumvent the laws, rules and regulations just to make a buck?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Maybe they don't want be hypocritical and circumvent the laws, rules and regulations just to make a buck?

I mean those tags are in a gray area already + CO, MT, etc have special rules for their governors tags and super tags.

 

[Trial153]

I mean those tags are in a gray area already + CO, MT, etc have special rules for their governors tags and super tags.

Never sat well with me not only you cut the front of the line don't even get to play by the same rules

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Never sat well with me not only you cut the front of the line don't even get to play by the same rules

I think we can agree the raffle/gov tags are a somewhat unsettling feature of our system.

Buyer beware, read the fine print and think about where your money is going.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Ps if anyone wants the actual draw odds for AK not just the app number... well you know a guy lol

 

[idelkslayer]

There are good reasons why tag allocations should heavily favor residents no matter whether we are talking about state or federal land. I think there is less justification for the huge price disparity between R and NR tag prices.

In general, I believe that residents could pay more and non-residents could pay less and still maintain the same amount of revenue. In Idaho for example, if residents and non residents paid $65 dollars for a deer tag, the revenue would be equal to what is now with residents and NR paying $24.75 and $351.75 respectively. Residents would lose their minds at that price. A less extreme example would be if resident tags cost $40; then a NR tag would only need to be $235 to maintain revenue.

I do support restricted NR opportunity in terms of tag quotas. I think everyone should be able to hunt close to home. In general, western states have much lower game densities and consequently limited numbers of tags. It doesn't make sense to me that a resident should have to sit at home while a NR travels in from hundreds of miles away. If NR got an even split of tags units with high percentage of Federal land then there simply wouldn't be enough tags to go around. This may be difficult for hunters in the east to understand when a lot of eastern seasons are managed with a daily doe deer limit and multiple bucks per season. Most western states limit hunters to a single deer per year and many don't even have enough available tags for every resident that wants to hunt. Utah and Nevada come to mind.

Federal lands are meant to be "Land of many uses", hunting is only one of those uses. I hunt almost entirely on federal land, but I also camp, hike, fish, pick berries, and cut firewood on that land. You can love our public lands and use them for much more than hunting. If your advocacy for public land starts and ends with hunting you are selling yourself short.

Also, the future of hunting and hunting recruitment is not in the western states. Hunters numbers here are growing. Hunter numbers are declining in the mid-west and the northeast. If we want future advocates for hunting we have to figure out how to increase participation in those regions.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I think what I’m struggling with is what constitutes fair access to opportunity. For some guys it’s cost, for some it’s no issue they just want the tags available to draw and they’ll pay whatever. What realistic combination is most true to the NAM?

Completely equitable cost and tag access both for R and NR just isn’t gonna happen, hence my condition “realistic”.

The North American Model is not the Rocky Mountain West model. I think it’s really easy to get off track when this is all wound up in the high demand for the western hunting resource.

 

[Trial153]

Not all states take advantage of NR. NY for example sells 37k plus NR hunting licenses each year. Especially Considering The demographics of the non-residents we could easily cash in on them yet we don't.
I been asked why dont I advocate for NR in NY. The simple answer is because I dont have to, they are already treated the same as residents except for the license cost
NY has about 38000 plus NR Hunting licenses sold each year. There is no quota on NR license sales.
Our resident license is 22dollars NR license is 100 dollars. That gets you both a deer and bear tag.
Muzzleloader and bow stamps are 15 dollars for residents and 30 for NR they each come with a deer tag.

So 160 gets a NR Three deer tags and bear tag and small game hunting.
There are over 4million acres of state city and public lands to hunt and fish. Both residents and NR can disperse camp in any of the forever wild regions of the Catskill Park and Adirondack park, which's like 3.5 million acres.
We NYB, have never lobbied for any restriction to be placed on NR. Same is said for all the years I was president of our houndmans association. Our revenue split is about 70/30 with residents funding the majority of the DEC budget for fish and wildlife.
I think our state treats NR very fairly. I cant sat the same for a lot other states, particularly in the west.

 

[mtmuley]

Not all states take advantage of NR. NY for example sells 37k plus NR hunting licenses each year. Especially Considering The demographics of the non-residents we could easily cash in on them yet we don't.
I been asked why dont I advocate for NR in NY. The simple answer is because I dont have to, they are already treated the same as residents except for the license cost
NY has about 38000 plus NR Hunting licenses sold each year. There is no quota on NR license sales.
Our resident license is 22dollars NR license is 100 dollars. That gets you both a deer and bear tag.
Muzzleloader and bow stamps are 15 dollars for residents and 30 for NR they each come with a deer tag.

So 160 gets a NR Three deer tags and bear tag and small game hunting.
There are over 4million acres of state city and public lands to hunt and fish. Both residents and NR can disperse camp in any of the forever wild regions of the Catskill Park and Adirondack park, which's like 3.5 million acres.
We NYB, have never lobbied for any restriction to be placed on NR. Same is said for all the years I was president of houndmans association. Our revenue split is about 70/30 with residents funding the majority of the DEC budget for fish and wildlife.
I think our state treats NR very fairly. I cant sat the same for a lot other states, particularly in the west.

Comparing the price and demand for NR tags in New York with say, Montana, Idaho and Wyoming doesn't make much sense. mtmuley

 

[Trial153]

Comparing the price and demand for NR tags in New York with say, Montana, Idaho and Wyoming doesn't make much sense. mtmuley

Maybe not to someone narrow minded thinks that
their way is the only way.

Personally I think we can all learn from each other and we all have room for improvement.

 

[mtmuley]

Maybe not to someone narrow minded thinks that
their way is the only way.

Personally I think we can all learn from each other and we all have room for improvement.

So you want a $20 dollar elk tag in Montana? mtmuley

 

[Trial153]

So you want a $20 dollar elk tag in Montana? mtmuley

I hope you're not really that ignorant.

 

[mtmuley]

I hope you're not really that ignorant.

Nope. Just thought it a bad example to compare NY to the West. People aren't exactly standing in line to buy NR licenses in NY. I suppose things could improve for the NR in Western states. I also think it isn't going to. Narrow minded I guess.... mtmuley

 

[Trial153]

Nope. Just thought it a bad example to compare NY to the West. People aren't exactly standing in line to buy NR licenses in NY. I suppose things could improve for the NR in Western states. I also think it isn't going to. Narrow minded I guess.... mtmuley

You're bad at math too. 38k plus nonresident hunting licences sold is significant.

 

[mtmuley]

You're bad at math too. 38k plus nonresident hunting licences sold is significant.

My math is actually pretty good. I agree, large number. All I said was it's not a fair comparison. Have a great weekend. mtmuley

 

[BuzzH]

My math is actually pretty good. I agree, large number. All I said was it's not a fair comparison. Have a great weekend. mtmuley

It is a crap comparison, you're right.

It would be cool to hunt a state like New York but I wouldn't pay even the current prices to do so with so little public land and only for whitetail and black bear. I can hunt both of those in wyoming and more of them without the travel. Plus I have more public land to hunt here that is less crowded. Don't have to spend a bunch of time traveling either. New York is selling a vast majority of those tags because they're cheap and because of the huge population of people that live in that part of the world.

The west is a destination that has elk, mule deer, pronghorn, sheep, goats, moose...aren't many new York hunters coming here for black bear and whitetail...and vice versa.