Non-resident Hunting and the North American Model

[brocksw]

When I am talking meat hunters, I am mean true meat hunters that value the hunt only for the meat. The kind of guy or gal that goes hunting and shoots the first legal animal that offers a good shot and then goes home. Very few of those hunters exist today compared to when I started hunting and when My dad started hunting they may have been a big majority. Now most of us still value the meat but more value is placed on the experience. Antlers are part of the equation but by no means all of it.

You might be right. I'm inclined to see other things as having more significant impact on the bedrock of the NAM but I could easily be wrong.

The idea of giving landowners tags isn't a bad idea. But I do think allowing them to sell them is detrimental and has a long term net negative impact on the NAM. As leopold predicted we reward landowners who participate in the NAM...but I don't think he meant that we should be okay with putting a price on their heads for resale as the reward. I'm obviously speculating there, but that's commericializing it.

The glorification of antlers has driven monetization like I stated above. Look at the hushin guy who monetized that bull he shot in utah. He was making replicas and literally going on tour with the antlers to make money. Posting it on instagram over and over to gain followers and sponsorship. That's a perversion of the NAM. It was basically a ticket to fame, he commericialized it.

Commercialization, in my eyes is the bigger problem. 150 years ago animals were damn near wiped out just for meat, tongues, hides, etc... It was the market for something that offered resale value and unregulated meat hunting that was apart of that market that almost drove multiple species into extinction.

Look at shark fin soup and the impact it's had on shark populations, or the whaling industries impact on whale populations. It's the commercialization of any aspect of it whether it's an antler, a steak, a fin, whatever it may be once it's been commercialized, it seems like that's when things start going downhill.

The laws in place to outlaw the sale of wildgame meat have prevented the commericialization of meat, because meat was commercialized.

 

[Trial153]

We should pull this thread up in 20 years and see where its at.
I say we are looking at the tip of the iceburg with limiting NR opportunities. We already Circumvented NAM on so many levels, with even plenty of its proponents justifying it " its only one Montana sheep tag" look at all good the money does. That just one example of hundreds thats happen yearly. And Residents already want the whole pie as long as they arent footing the bill. I have zero faith that they will do anything that limits their opportunity for the greater good of the model.
I say in 20 years the vast minority of NR opportunities will be market based in one form or another. And it may a good thing because it maybe the only thing.

 

[JLS]

We should pull this thread up in 20 years and see where its at.

@wllm1313 is young enough he'll have a lower likelihood of being dead than many of us. I nominate him to do a 20 year analysis, complete with graphs, charts, and photoshopped images.

 

[Trial153]

@wllm1313 is young enough he'll have a lower likelihood of being dead than many of us. I nominate him to do a 20 year analysis, complete with graphs, charts, and photoshopped images.

I will be in my early sixties in 20 years. Count me in for a meme.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@wllm1313 is young enough he'll have a lower likelihood of being dead than many of us. I nominate him to do a 20 year analysis, complete with graphs, charts, and photoshopped images.

I will be too busy telling all the young guys about all the cranker animals I shot back in the 20-twenties and how hunting sucks now but whatever cause my knees are shot from killing a pile of sheep.

 

[BigHornRam]

I'll be pushing 80 and will try to get some decent unlimited sheep pics to post. Forgive me if they are a little blurry though.

 

[Whiptail]

I fear most hunting is becoming for the very rich or the very poor which is basically the same as Europe. Two different systems that produced the same result. Convergent evolution?

 

[BWALKER77]

Nearly big bull or buck I’ve killed I started the day with the intent of simply making white packages in the freezer. I find myself becoming more of a true meat hunter every year. And yes, this is a very salient point.

Same.
I'd soon shoot a nice cow elk vs a bull.
I wont shoot a doe mule deer, because IMO they arent doing great in any area, but a doe whitetail is fine.
I did let my kids shoot doe muleys this season, because it was their first season hunting.

 

[BWALKER77]

I fear most hunting is becoming for the very rich or the very poor which is basically the same as Europe. Two different systems that produced the same result. Convergent evolution?

The poor can not hunt in Europe at all.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I’d like to know what some guys like Mike Frisina think about this. He went to Mongolia and built a sheep hunting program basically from scratch in the last couple decades, and also has a lot of perspective on the NAM and long term situation in MT and the rocky mtn west. I’ll shoot him a note.

 

[antlerradar]

You might be right. I'm inclined to see other things as having more significant impact on the bedrock of the NAM but I could easily be wrong.

The idea of giving landowners tags isn't a bad idea. But I do think allowing them to sell them is detrimental and has a long term net negative impact on the NAM. As leopold predicted we reward landowners who participate in the NAM...but I don't think he meant that we should be okay with putting a price on their heads for resale as the reward. I'm obviously speculating there, but that's commericializing it.

The glorification of antlers has driven monetization like I stated above. Look at the hushin guy who monetized that bull he shot in utah. He was making replicas and literally going on tour with the antlers to make money. Posting it on instagram over and over to gain followers and sponsorship. That's a perversion of the NAM. It was basically a ticket to fame, he commericialized it.

Commercialization, in my eyes is the bigger problem. 150 years ago animals were damn near wiped out just for meat, tongues, hides, etc... It was the market for something that offered resale value and unregulated meat hunting that was apart of that market that almost drove multiple species into extinction.

Look at shark fin soup and the impact it's had on shark populations, or the whaling industries impact on whale populations. It's the commercialization of any aspect of it whether it's an antler, a steak, a fin, whatever it may be once it's been commercialized, it seems like that's when things start going downhill.

The laws in place to outlaw the sale of wildgame meat have prevented the commericialization of meat, because meat was commercialized.

You are not wrong, The shift away from meat hunting is what is driving commercialization. As hunters place more value on the experience, antlers etc. we place more demand on what is for the most part a fixed supply. The result is an ever increasing price for a better experience or bigger antlers and many of us as hunters are more than willing to pay. After all paying for a lease or a guided hunt is fairly cheap when compared with other forms of recreation. We in the West on one hand are lucky in that we have public land to fall back on, On the other hand Public land is struggling to shoulder the load from the increase in demand from the hunters that are left out because they are unwilling or unable to pay for a more quality hunt.

 

[JLS]

I’d like to know what some guys like Mike Frisina think about this. He went to Mongolia and built a sheep hunting program basically from scratch in the last couple decades, and also has a lot of perspective on the NAM and long term situation in MT and the rocky mtn west. I’ll shoot him a note.

Thank you. I look forward to hearing his perspective.

@Andrew Posewitz, your dad was one of the greatest NAM advocates I've ever met. Did he ever share his thoughts on this issue?

 

[antlerradar]

Same.
I'd soon shoot a nice cow elk vs a bull.
I wont shoot a doe mule deer, because IMO they arent doing great in any area, but a doe whitetail is fine.
I did let my kids shoot doe muleys this season, because it was their first season hunting.

In a way doe and cow hunting are part of the problem. When I first started hunting a doe was not an option and an elk was a western Montana thing. Now I can shoot a cow and a truck load of does within a few miles of my house. I can be a meat hunter with doe or cow tags and trophy hunt with my A tag. In a sense I have the best of everything, meat in the freezer, a quality experience and a best set of antlers I can find all in the same year. Even the hunter that places a very high value on the meat can now afford to be a trophy hunter. It all adds up to more pressure on the resource and in time more demand for quality.

 

[Trial153]

Considering what's going on in Montana's legislative session and what got tabled in WY.

I have to ask. assuming both passed as they were/are written which is more promising from the NR standpoint for access to opportunities into the future?

 

[Brad W]

I agree wholeheartedly with what JLS posted to start this thread. I posted a version of my comments below on goHunt in reference to the recent Wyoming bill to reduce NR opportunity.
The NA model relies on a broad base of public support. All I hear these days from residents is “me, me, me”. Residents are legally correct that their state doesn’t “owe” non-residents anything, but a reasonable person should recognize that non-residents contribute far more than the price of a tag. The recent Wyoming bill was almost totally symbolic for residents actual draw odds. Take a look at the actual numbers - in unit 130 for mule deer resident draw odds go from 1.9% to 2.1% - so once every 400 years they will draw an extra tag. On the flip side open up your OnX account and look at all the little RMEF access points(paid for with NR donations), actually look at how fish and game agencies are funded(in MT only 1.5% of the FWP budget comes from general tax revenue (roughly $1.4 million, NR contribute 80% of the tag revenue and the remaining 25% of the budget comes from PR funds which also come primarily from NRs), or think about the role non-resident sportsmen can play in supporting legislation that benefits western residents (bears, wolves, habitat, access, etc...). Non-residents care about wildlife issues in the west because we have an opportunity to hunt there. Take that away and down the road the donations to RMEF, Muley fanatic, wild sheep foundation, etc, etc will start to dwindle. I live in a state without elk but I donate to RMEF, MWF, and others because I love hunting out west. I am politically active supporting or opposing political issues that disproportionately effect western residents because I believe in the principals of the North American conservation model. (I am actively opposing HB 505 in Montana despite the fact that it would greatly increase my odds of hunting with my MT family each year.) Maybe that 0.2% draw increase is worth it to you at the expense of everyone else. If residents spent less time fighting over a tiny piece of the pie then maybe we could work together to make the pie bigger.
I was stationed in Europe for several years and have real experience with the hunting and fishing realities in Germany, Austria, and Slovenia. The Euro model of management does lead to less pressure, zero public access and much higher costs. It also is catastrophic for sportsmen numbers and recruitment. I fished all over Europe and never saw anyone under 40 on the river or on a hunt, to be honest it was rare to see anyone else fishing at all. The costs are too high and present a huge barrier for recruitment. The sporting industry in Central Europe is a tiny niche and much of it in both the hunting and fishing world is centered on what are essentially “high fence” and “fishing park” operations. With the challenges facing hunting in the west, anyone with a care about the long term sustainability of our sport and heritage should be looking to increase cooperation and support, not inhibit it. Blaming the tiny share of NR hunting in your state for every ill is frankly ridiculous. Gallatin County in MT alone grew more in the last 8 years than the total number of NR deer and elk tags sold each year.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

This seemed relevant to the discussion.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

So let me get this straight, your state is strapped for cash... so your selling raffles.

But also as a NR I can't hunt most of them without a guide.

So buy a raffle for a tag, that will cost me 20K+ to hunt.

Listen, if this was about conservation you would be trying to maximize participation in this raffle.

That would mean, extend season, not adhering to normal bag limits, all DIY, etc.

You know like @Oak's sheep raffles, the goal is to maximize funding by getting just about everyone to throw in some dough.

Maybe I'm being a tool this email just struck me as super tone def.

 

[Hunting Wife]

So let me get this straight, your state is strapped for cash... so your selling raffles.

But also as a NR I can't hunt most of them without a guide.

So buy a raffle for a tag, that will cost me 20K+ to hunt.

Listen, if this was about conservation you would be trying to maximize participation in this raffle.

That would mean, extend season, not adhering to normal bag limits, all DIY, etc.

You know like @Oak's sheep raffles, the goal is to maximize funding by getting just about everyone to throw in some dough.

Maybe I'm being a tool this email just struck me as super tone def.

I had the same thought...”win” a hunt that I have to pay 20K or more to participate in? If I had that kind of cash saved up, why would I have to buy raffle chances?

Alaska’s existing laws kind of hamstring them in using this as an effective fundraising strategy.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I had the same thought...”win” a hunt that I have to pay 20K or more to participate in? If I had that kind of cash saved up, why would I have to buy raffle chances?

Alaska’s existing laws kind of hamstring them in using this as an effective fundraising strategy.

Yeah if you actually click on the hunts, it gives a description and on most of them it says something along the lines of, "Non-residents are required to have a guide. Guided hunts in this area typically range roughly from $11,500 – 13,000."

Alaska is different, you can't just drive to these hunts, I get it... but also yeah, maybe not the best method of raising funds.

 

[Trial153]

The will make a killing on it. If I drew a Tok tag I would hire a guide in about 15 minutes.

Those are all top shelf tags. They will sell a ton of them