Kenetrek Boots

No to floating in Yellowstone

I was fortunate enough to get a smith pass this last year. Amazing trip, scenery was incredible. Fishing sucked due to runoff but had a great time nonetheless. We had the place virtually to ourselves. Minus certain variables, the human impact was still quite evident. Right now "they" want an inch but it won't be long before it's a mile. Why can't some things stay pristine, untouched.
 
straightarrow, how will your grandkids' children have any idea of the "pristine" nature of the outback stretches of YNP waters if they are never given an opportunity to be there and enjoy the resource. others must have an opportunity to enjoy the outdoors to develop the same passion as you to protect the "pristine" beauty of these areas. "pristine" does not stop at the park border. Without that chance, will they care as much? Bootlaces also transport noxious wed seeds,is that a reason to stop hiking in the park? I believe education and management is the solution to many of these concerns.
 
Poco, as you are clearly mocking the word "pristine" and it was I, not SA, that used it I will add that little if anything is pristine in this world anymore. That doesn't mean we say screw it, go ahead. Once you open this can of worms, it cannot be undone. The snowmobiles are a perfect example. If a person wants to be on the water, great, I do to. That doesn't mean every stretch of water should be at their disposal. There are so many options out there, MT alone, and most people will never get to all of them. Why aren't those options enough, why can't there be a few places where I don't have to deal with watercraft. As for our children's children, shouldn't we provide them with the choice. You get to experience the outdoors as they are now, which is still great in a lot of ways. But how many times have we all said//thought; image how this place was 50, 100 yrs ago.
 
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poco - for whatever reason weeds don't seem to follow the hikers as much as the boaters. It's probably from the trailers. Foot access is the lowest impact way to access the backcountry and I don't think it will go away.
 
"pristine" does not stop at the park border
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On that we agree. But like harvesting timber and extracting resources from appropriate areas, protecting pristine areas from development and adverse impacts is increasingly complex and difficult. So let's agree to leave those now protected areas with the existing levels of protection and focus on increased balanced use of those areas which are of lesser natural value or already are not protected. As previously stated, there are so many waters now open for boating and recreation that a person or group of persons would be challenged to use them all in a lifetime. Many of those areas also hold spectacular beauty and challenging water features for the elite boaters.
 
I was not using the word "prestine" in a mocking manner, simply a quote. River corridors across the nation have become cesspools for invasive species for many different reasons. Only education in prevention and research will address the currant situation. I was in yellowstone several times on sleds, and thought with the management practiced there it was a model for agencies everywhere. Outside of providing avenues for bison to migrate,what were the negative impacts?
 
Ben Lamb said:
Like boats on Ystone lake, or Lewis lake? Lakes drain in to rivers, right?
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For crying out loud Ben, when has "since we are screwing things up with 'Method A'" been a valid reason to introduce "Method B" which will cause different types of damage in new places?
 
Ben, another way to look at this is to determine what benefits are gained by a particular use, and what you would lose if they weren't allowed.

First consider hiking. It is the least damaging way to view the park, and the it enables you to see things that only exist in Yellowstone. To some extent "pristine" does stop at the borders because it is illegal to collect fossils, artifacts, antlers etc. There are amazing finds in the backcountry (http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=255595). Horseback riding extends this opportunity to virtually everyone. Not allowing hiking or horseback riding would be a significant reduction in the ways to experience the unique features of the park.

Second, consider fishing. Yellowstone offers a unique opportunity for catching native trout in wild country. Furthermore, it is the only place I can think of where you can do this without boat traffic. Not allowing fishing would take away a very unique experience. You could make a case that the damage outweighs the benefit so we should ban fishing, but that would be a battle that dwarfs the snowmobile issue and in fact both are examples of how difficult it is to stop a damaging use.

Third, consider boating in rivers. What is unique about boating Yellowstone rivers that can't be duplicated by hiking or horseback riding? Not much, maybe a cool rapid or two, but those are available immediately outside the park. In fact it takes away from a wildness that is only possible in Yellowstone, specifically because it doesn't allow boats.
 
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Well expressed, Rob. Me thinks Ben actually agrees. I believe he respects your rhetoric and enjoys a stimulating debate exercise as a vehicle to express the salient points. Am I incorrect, Ben?
 
Straight Arrow said:
Well expressed, Rob. Me thinks Ben actually agrees. I believe he respects your rhetoric and enjoys a stimulating debate exercise as a vehicle to express the salient points. Am I incorrect, Ben?
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Actually, i don't know where I stand. On one hand, i do agree with Rob that there are a lot of negatives but on the other, the Park Service has stifled discussion of this. It wouldn't be a bad thing to get an EIS on this. The data will more than likely corroborate Rob's position. If that's the case the. So be it. If we can find a spot for non-motorized use in YNP like we have in GTNP, then maybe a limited expansion of uses could be done in a responsible manner.

Plus,this is an issue that gets Rob fired up. He's too mellow normally. I'm doing this so he can get his dander up.
 
I'm not sure I understand this particular debate. My dad was a fisheries biologist for the forest service and this topic happened as well on the Gallatin River. They performed studies in regards to fishermen and the impact of adding float trips on the river. I think they even went as far as to document how many boats pasted a given fisherman on a given hole.
The bottom line was the forest agreed to allow 1 (I believe) boating outfitter the rights to float the river with only a certain number of boats per day and also once the water level reduced to a certain point they either had to stop boating or had a really small number. Their study revealed that during the best boating (high water) fishermen weren't using the river as much and so the boaters were allowed to have at it but as the waters decreased the fishermen began to show up in force and so they didn't want conflicts between the two groups in low waters. Seemed like a healthy balance.

Fast forward to now. We have multiple outfitters rafting the river. They are now running it all season. It's ridiculous watching them in late summer as they bounce off of rocks sometimes getting hung up on them one after another all in the name of collecting money. The fishermen now will have boat after boat crossing through the hole they are fishing and with the water so low they literally have to reel in to allow the boats through. It's nuts!
It's a slippery slope once you allow "for profit" entities to use public arenas for private gain. I guess the answer would be for permitting and if need be only allow the boating outfitters a small fixed number of permits. But even then this was supposed to be the case on the Gallatin with limited numbers and dates and it's now out the window.
 
It boils down to enforcement $$$, In my opinion. Forest Service is limited and continues to be strangled (edit added: same with FWP). Dept of Interior has a miraculous budget that fills the 'seasonal' traffic cops to keep darwin from fulfilling it's role on "can't fix stupid" people seeking pictures with the griz, bison, etc...
EIS would be a good move. From there, enforcement $'s would be next in line.

Oh, and Lawnboy, you've gotta finish off that signature. :)
...as a beaver hat.
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Ben, you've got me thinking. My first reaction was no floating. But YNP does a good job of regulating horse camping in the back country. They could do the same with boats. Maybe, just maybe, if the number of boats allowed was very, very small like the number of horse camps allowed each year. I don't like it coming from congress, however.
 
Interesting point of view indeed ... from Exum, a concessionaire already promoting, even as the issue is just beginning to get vetted. kaching, kaching, kaching $$$$$.
 
Straight Arrow said:
Interesting point of view indeed ... from Exum, a concessionaire already promoting, even as the issue is just beginning to get vetted. kaching, kaching, kaching $$$$$.
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I certainly appreciate the cynicism, but Forrest has a long track record of conservation advocacy. Sure, he might make some money off of the guiding, but I wouldn't expect to see him advocate for something that he felt would negatively impact the resource.
 
What you refer to as "cynicism" is what I perceive as "historical realism".

...negatively impact the resource
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That is a subjective phrase.

Although I have no reason to question Mr. McCarthy's consevation advocacy, one of my basic rules is that if one stands to make money from it, it naturally takes on a different bent than conservation advocacy that is more genuinely pure.
 
Straight Arrow said:
Although I have no reason to question Mr. McCarthy's consevation advocacy, one of my basic rules is that if one stands to make money from it, it naturally takes on a different bent than conservation advocacy that is more genuinely pure.
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Purism is a demon we need to exercise.
 
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