New points theory

[ImBillT]

Rich people hate standing in lines. Make the app be in Feb, one person in the building at a time.

The self employed also hate standing in lines.

 

[seeth07]

Totally random with a post draw waiting period equally to the quality of the hunt.

I think this is going to end up being the only way that will make most people happy with the change while helping to make it "more fair". The problem is that this proposal will cost the state dollars so its a hard sell.

 

[ImBillT]

Gotta laugh sitting hear reading the various schemes of greenhorns for the best way to throw us decades invested point holders under the bus. To get us out of your way to your tags. As if it’s not already enough every state in the country outside of Iowa & New Hampshire has been cheapening our points to half the original value over the last 20. But given the fiasco Maine got away with peddling all the bonus points money can buy, I don’t see any class action lawsuit. It won’t stop until it gets to the 1923 Weimar Republic hyperinflation level. What a joke.

Let’s say you started hunting before point schemes. You went hunting when great things were OTC unlimited, then you went hunting when things were capped, then you got in on the ground floor of a point system. The first year is still essentially random because everyone has zero points, then one point, then two. If you got lucky, you drew one of the top tags in the state early. Not only that, but the mid tier hunts weren’t even getting blasted cause none had more than a handful of points yet, so now, only a few years in, you can be at max points in a unit that might be 25pts by the time I’m born, and then you can do it again while people at 15pts are scrapping for the top. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who buried themselves in points, attempting to hoard a public resource for themselves. It’s funny how many of those people are anti-private land too.

 

[ImBillT]

Make every state random with two weeks from the application deadline to the results date in a rotating order. Offer a partial refund if you turn your tag back in within one week of the final draw. Only those who want to go hunting this year will apply. Total applications might increase, but only those who actually want to hunt this year will be applying. Lots of people who draw in one of the first states will not apply in the later states. Some who draw a top tier tag in a later state will turn their mid tier tag back in to be redistributed to an alternate. States will hang on to a large portion of that returned tag fee. Again, states go in a rotating order from year to year. WY could be first in 2023, then last in 2024 and bump back up one position each year.

On average, those who participate in a random system for 50yrs will have drawn 50X as many tags as those who participated for only 1 year. No point system necessary.

 

[Mallardsx2]

-No refunds.
-No turning tags back in (This is nonsense unless you have a proven medical emergency and IMHO always has been).
-No points if you purchase OTC in CO.(I really like this idea and I hunt OTC Colorado)
-All Points used if you draw a male species tag no matter what part of the drawing you draw it in.
-People need to be "punished" and loose all points if they draw a male tag.
-Waiting period before more points can be purchased.
-Waiting period before you can apply for a tag again.
-Do away with point averaging in Wyoming (this is being abused big time)

Bottom line is that NR'S better get used to the fact that they are not going to be rifle hunting the same state in the west every single year because it just cant sustain it. At a minimum they wont be hunting there and building points at the same time. It saddens me but its the reality that we all are going to have to face in the next couple years.

 

[Zim]

Let’s say you started hunting before point schemes. You went hunting when great things were OTC unlimited, then you went hunting when things were capped, then you got in on the ground floor of a point system. The first year is still essentially random because everyone has zero points, then one point, then two. If you got lucky, you drew one of the top tags in the state early. Not only that, but the mid tier hunts weren’t even getting blasted cause none had more than a handful of points yet, so now, only a few years in, you can be at max points in a unit that might be 25pts by the time I’m born, and then you can do it again while people at 15pts are scrapping for the top. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who buried themselves in points, attempting to hoard a public resource for themselves. It’s funny how many of those people are anti-private land too.

Hoard? I just followed the rules set by each state, paid what was charged, and have been using as directed. I burn them regularly. In 2019 I cashed 22 Oregon points for an elk tag. In 2020 I cashed 46 points for deer & pronghorn tags. Both these waits would have been half the time had I not been screwed by the state converting 50% of the tags to outfitter welfare, leaving a whopping 2 1/2% NR quota. And you accuse hunters like me of "hoarding"??? Get a life. LOL

Oh BTW, none of the states that screwed us gave us back any of the time or money stolen. They are the ones that stuck us in point hell waiting for our units. I guarantee not a single one of us asked for that. We would have been through the system by now and back to zero for the newbies. But that's what greed does.

 

[Buffs35]

Let’s say you started hunting before point schemes. You went hunting when great things were OTC unlimited, then you went hunting when things were capped, then you got in on the ground floor of a point system. The first year is still essentially random because everyone has zero points, then one point, then two. If you got lucky, you drew one of the top tags in the state early. Not only that, but the mid tier hunts weren’t even getting blasted cause none had more than a handful of points yet, so now, only a few years in, you can be at max points in a unit that might be 25pts by the time I’m born, and then you can do it again while people at 15pts are scrapping for the top. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who buried themselves in points, attempting to hoard a public resource for themselves. It’s funny how many of those people are anti-private land too.

You had me for a while, then you used the word hoard. Tough to hoard something when you only draw it once.

 

[Zim]

So far, this is for non-residents only theory:

-you have 5 years to use your current points
-years 1-3 current points get 50% of tags
-years 4-5 25% of tags



That’s what I got so far….
Matt

I laugh the most when I read this idea. You 26 point holders just go out there and spend your points within 5 years. LOL, You may as well just screw us all and give us zero now. In Nevada I've been trying to burn my points on the absolute worst units since 2007 and been unable to cash a single one. What up with that?!

 

[Elkmagnet]

I think this is going to end up being the only way that will make most people happy with the change while helping to make it "more fair". The problem is that this proposal will cost the state dollars so its a hard sell.

It is too bad that point based tag draws are designed as an unwritten contract to collect revinew and not as a way to fairly distribute tags.
(If you miss __ years you loose your points, loyalty points, etc.)

 

[Elkmagnet]

They are the ones that stuck us in point hell waiting for our units. I guarantee not a single one of us asked for that.

Speaking in absolute rarely holds true. I would say especially in this case.

 

[fowladdict]

Oh BTW, none of the states that screwed us gave us back any of the time or money stolen. They are the ones that stuck us in point hell waiting for our units. I guarantee not a single one of us asked for that. We would have been through the system by now and back to zero for the newbies. But that's what greed does.

People bad at math asked for it.

 

[Zim]

People bad at math asked for it.

Lol, What good is math when all the math is totally overhauled 10 years into the system? You think we are a point pool of Nostradamus’s.

 

[Zim]

Here’s my points theory: All dissatisfied newbies form a lobbyist group, buy corrupt politicians in each state to get rid of outfitter welfare and SFW-type wealth tags stolen from nonresidents that cheapened point values. Now that would be truly constructive of your time, and shorten your wait, rather than screwing fellow sportsmen. I’m guessing you just think it’s easier to screw fellow sportsmen? Rather than follow an ethical route?

 

[fowladdict]

You think we are a point pool of Nostradamus’s.

So you were one of those that asked for it?

No...two things make men a pool of idiots. Hunting tags and a pretty girl.

 

[Zim]

So you were one of those that asked for it?

WTF? The only ones who “asked for it” were self serving politicians and entitlement minded outfitters. It’s not rocket science.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Here’s my points theory: All dissatisfied newbies form a lobbyist group, buy corrupt politicians in each state to get rid of outfitter welfare and SFW-type wealth tags stolen from nonresidents that cheapened point values. Now that would be truly constructive of your time, and shorten your wait, rather than screwing fellow sportsmen. I’m guessing you just think it’s easier to screw fellow sportsmen? Rather than follow an ethical route?

While most guys do want a chance before 40. Its not just new hunters dissatisfied with the points systems.
Please tell us your future plan in Oregon now that you "cashed 22 pts on an elk tag and 46 on deer and lope".
How old do you estimate you will be when you get another crack at those same hunts?

 

[ImBillT]

Hoard? I just followed the rules set by each state, paid what was charged, and have been using as directed. I burn them regularly. In 2019 I cashed 22 Oregon points for an elk tag. In 2020 I cashed 46 points for deer & pronghorn tags. Both these waits would have been half the time had I not been screwed by the state converting 50% of the tags to outfitter welfare, leaving a whopping 2 1/2% NR quota. And you accuse hunters like me of "hoarding"??? Get a life. LOL

Oh BTW, none of the states that screwed us gave us back any of the time or money stolen. They are the ones that stuck us in point hell waiting for our units. I guarantee not a single one of us asked for that. We would have been through the system by now and back to zero for the newbies. But that's what greed does.

There aren’t enough tags for everyone to get one. Point systems don’t fix that. They just put everyone born after you at the end of an infinite line or force them to hunt something with a zero percent chance of ever hunting the tags you’re clinging to the opportunity to hunt. When a certain hunt gets 1000, or 100, or even 50 applicants per tag, quite a few people will never be a able to hunt that tag in their lifetimes regardless of what system of allocation is implemented. With points, it makes it nearly impossible or literally impossible for anyone only a few years behind ever to hunt the tag that first year entrants get a good chance at hunting. Not only that, but for hunts with just enough tags that maybe everyone interested could hunt it just one time, points insure that you’ll be long past your prime before you ever get to hunt it.

“Been through the system by now and back to newbies”? Really? You’d actually just be back to the next guy who had been in line for twenty plus years. It would take 38yrs to get every NM applicant in 2021 ONE SINGLE ELK TAG. That’s including a lot of hunts that most people wouldn’t even want to go on. To rifle hunt the Gila it would take 242yrs to get all the applicants from 2021 just one tag. You explain to me how you’re going to get through that system so the newbies can have their shot AFTER YOU GET YOURS. Here’s the truth. Not everyone will get to hunt elk in NM before they die, but if NM went to a point system, anyone who entered just a few years after the first year would go from a TINY mathematical chance of hunting a few if the really great hunts, and a good chance at hunting somewhere to ZERO CHANCE of hunting anything you would ever want to hunt.

 

[Elkmagnet]

I'm sorry Zim but if you look at points as an investment where you are entitled to a return you will likely be disappointed.

 

[ImBillT]

-No refunds.
-No turning tags back in (This is nonsense unless you have a proven medical emergency and IMHO always has been).
-No points if you purchase OTC in CO.(I really like this idea and I hunt OTC Colorado)
-All Points used if you draw a male species tag no matter what part of the drawing you draw it in.
-People need to be "punished" and loose all points if they draw a male tag.
-Waiting period before more points can be purchased.
-Waiting period before you can apply for a tag again.
-Do away with point averaging in Wyoming (this is being abused big time)

Bottom line is that NR'S better get used to the fact that they are not going to be rifle hunting the same state in the west every single year because it just cant sustain it. At a minimum they wont be hunting there and building points at the same time. It saddens me but its the reality that we all are going to have to face in the next couple years.

I agree with “punishing” going hunting IF WE’RE GOING TO USE POINTS. BUT that’s one problem that I have with point systems. They punish going hunting. In a random system, I can shoot for the moon with my first choice, and the easiest to draw hunt I’d be willing to go on with my second choice, and still shoot for the moon next year. With points, if you go hunting just once(most states are about out of draw tags that won’t burn your points) you’ll NEVER get to hunt one of the top hunts. The thing is, you’ll likely never get to hunt them anyway. Then thirty years later you’re trying to figure out how to get that tag since you just realized that you’re not going to catch the point creep.

 

[fowladdict]

WTF? The only ones who “asked for it” were self serving politicians and entitlement minded outfitters. It’s not rocket science.

Not true. Plenty of average joes embraced it and supported it at the time of inception. See post 70.