New idea for access to private land

[sheff]

I despise people who think that they are owed something from those who receive gov't payments. Especially those who have no clue what the payments are for.

30338,

Care to share your knowledge of federal farm subsidies and what the are specifically for?

 

[noharleyyet]

Talk about an emotionally charged issue! Guess it depends (literally) which side of the fence you are standing on.

I know that, generally speaking, farmers and ranchers work hard and have a tough go at making the dollars work. I am self employed, too. If I have a bad year or an economic slump, the US Gov't doesn't give a damn about me. They just want their taxable dollars based on whatever I do make. They certainly aren't sending me any checks. I'm on my own. It doesn't matter if it's Republican, Democrat, liberal or conservative. My role is to simply work and pay my taxes.

It's too easy to stand in one set of shoes and make judgement based only on what's in front of me. There is always a bigger, more complex picture. Too easy to say that we pay our taxes so we demand this and that. But there is a balance and the scales of justice are seldom if ever really fair.

I support the independent rancher and farmer as firmly as I support all of our core American values. Corporations with no soul and no values are far too prevalent and we need to do all we can to help these families maintain their lifestyles and their independence. No matter what. But it does sometimes make me think of the fat dog that gets fed at the table and then growls when you go near his bone.

CRP is one of the best things to happen for wildlife. Open space and habitat is the most critical component to sustaining wildlife populations and hunting. But it sure is difficult, on your day off or vacation, to stand across the fence from a big CRP field with a posted sign. And the comment about how many of us are willing to lay out the money to buy ranch land and take our chances is silly. There's not much wheat country available for sale. And you know why.

It's really a matter of conscience for the landowner. They have the right to decide. Fair enough. I would like to think that if I were on the other side of the fence, I would consider the balance of stewardship and rights. I would like to think that I would be open to reasonable access and fairness. But, chances are, if I were on that side of the fence, I would growl if you guys came near my bone!

It's always a matter of perspective when we make our choices.

...thoughtful post.

 

[30338]

I despise people who think that there should be no strings attached to government payments. I kind of liked the work requirement for welfare, it was very effective at reducing those payments. I like attaching a work requirement to food stamps, sorry SNAP cards, don't want to offend anyone.

I despise bloated gov't bureaucracies, I despise paying over 40% of my earnings to the government, I despise illegal immigration, I despise socialism, I despise corrupt politicians.

I despise seeing 92 million Americans dropping out of the work force. I despise seeing 50 million Americans on food stamps. I despise a work visa program that is bringing in skilled foreigners and displacing skilled Americans who are struggling.

So if you despise people who think that those who receive taxpayer funds should owe the taxpayers something, you certainly despise me. Going to guess the feeling is mutual.

 

[30338]

...thoughtful post.

Second the feelings on Bokeh's post.

 

[npaden]

Well it seems like 30338 doesn't want to hear from anyone that doesn't agree with him and especially doesn't want to hear the actual facts, but just in case there are still others reading this post that do I'll repeat some items from my earlier post as someone who is receiving CRP payments.

Again, CRP is a very detailed rental contract. It has LOTS of strings attached. My contracts (yes, I think I have 5 separate contracts on the whopping 30 acres that I have enrolled) run anywhere from 7 to 10 pages long with more pages of attachments. There are specific requirements of exactly what I can and can't do with the property, maintenance requirements, severe penalties for early termination, etc.

One other note would be that typically CRP rental payments are below market rates, sometimes significantly below market rates. That's without requiring access. If you required access the rate would be WAY below market rate on any property that has decent hunting potential. Folks that lease their hunting access in Texas often get $10 - $15+ Per acre. I'm pretty sure I could lease my land for hunting for quite a bit more than I'm getting in CRP payments. Plus if I got out of CRP I could still lease the grazing rights out a well. Again, for more than I'm receiving in CRP payments.

The big benificiary of the CRP program is wildlife. Pushing for mandatory access would end up hurting wildlife. Like it or not, that's the way it is.

My 2 cents. Nathan

 

[Nemont]

I despise people who think that there should be no strings attached to government payments

What makes you believe there are no strings attached to ag. subsidies ? If that is your opinion you are highly uninformed for somebody who believes they are so superior to everyone else.

Good luck on your crusade for access. Count me as one who thinks your ideas are idiotic and I despise the welfare attitude shown that you don't want to buy your own access but want the taxpayers to buy it for you.

So much for a respectful discussion of any issue.

Nemont

 

[30338]

Nathan, I mentioned that I thought Bokeh's response was well thought out and it talked to both sides of the issue I felt. Is there an easy solution, certainly not. If you hold a different opinion and don't personally attack me, I would like to think we could discuss it in a civil manner.

Start telling me you despise me for my view on it, and I don't feel quite the same about the discussion.

In your case listed above, if I could reduce the amount of taxpayer funds going to support your example and you could make more money by leasing it out to hunters or for grazing then I would tend to support that solution. We may never agree about it, but it is good to discuss pros and cons of it I think.

I noticed many landowners cancelled their crp contracts and started growing corn as soon as they could make more money by doing that. Is that good or bad? Probably bad for wildlife but good for their pocketbook? Are they bad people for that? If I owned the land as an investment, I'd probably try to maximize the money yet retain wildlife habitat as best I could.

 

[30338]

What makes you believe there are no strings attached to ag. subsidies ? If that is your opinion you are highly uninformed for somebody who believes they are so superior to everyone else.

Good luck on your crusade for access. Count me as one who thinks your ideas are idiotic and I despise the welfare attitude shown that you don't want to buy your own access but want the taxpayers buy it for you.

So much for a respectful discussion of any issue.

Nemont

Nemont, At the end of the day I can happily hunt out my remaining years on the public lands that my taxes are paying for. A poster said they despised me for my view of having strings attached to government payments, which is why I used that word in response to them. I never indicated I was superior to anyone else.

If you think my idea is idiotic, that is fine. I am a taxpayer and I don't believe that my funds are being used in an efficient manner when going towards a Welfare Bill which includes farm subsidies. I think it is odd to call it a Farm Bill when over 50% of it is directed towards the SNAP program.

Since there are strings attached now to it, I still feel it is reasonable to attach some type of access program to it. We obviously disagree. I did note that some others felt that there were aspects of my idea which had merit. I am sure some aspects of my idea do not.

 

[Nemont]

Nemont, At the end of the day I can happily hunt out my remaining years on the public lands that my taxes are paying for. A poster said they despised me for my view of having strings attached to government payments, which is why I used that word in response to them. I never indicated I was superior to anyone else.

If you think my idea is idiotic, that is fine. I am a taxpayer and I don't believe that my funds are being used in an efficient manner when going towards a Welfare Bill which includes farm subsidies. I think it is odd to call it a Farm Bill when over 50% of it is directed towards the SNAP program.

Since there are strings attached now to it, I still feel it is reasonable to attach some type of access program to it. We obviously disagree. I did note that some others felt that there were aspects of my idea which had merit. I am sure some aspects of my idea do not.

Well good luck. When has our government spend taxpayer money efficiently? I don't ever get much of say what happens after I write my check to the Treasury.

Nemont

 

[30338]

I hear you there. Good luck to you as well. And thanks for the discussion. I did learn some things about CRP and the farmers/ranchers side of it.

 

[SFC B]

...thoughtful post.

X2....

 

[30338]

So learned something else. 75% of total farm subsidies go to the top 10% of farming companies. So Archer Daniels Midland for example. What would be the thought of saying to ADM, you are taking millions in subsidies, you have to develop a workable access program for sportsman and outdoor enthusiasts in order to continue receiving those funds. So take the private landowner out of the equation and look at that angle.

Again, just a thought, but does an ADM have huntable or fishable acres in their holdings? If they are taking millions in taxpayer subsidies, do we the taxpayers have a right to access those holdings? I am more than happy to say it is a crappy idea, just not yet.

How about Ted Turner? If he is in the top 10% of recipients, would it make sense to say Ted, stop taking the subsidies or allow access? I was surprised at how lopsided the payouts were at the top. I guess I shouldn't have been. Just a discussion and I am neutral about Ted Turner and ADM, they were just examples.