Never Ending Challenge of Access

[Flynarrow]

With a newly Gianforte chosen FWP Director who's background is Choteau ranching and has a perfect rating by UPOM I understand when she was a legislator, do you really thing public access is going to improve?

I've said too many times that elections have consequences. Sportsmen should be thinking deeper than their guns IMO.

 

[antlerradar]

With a newly Gianforte chosen FWP Director who's background is Choteau ranching and has a perfect rating by UPOM I understand when she was a legislator, do you really thing public access is going to improve?

I've said too many times that elections have consequences. Sportsmen should be thinking deeper than their guns IMO.

If you think that guns are the main reason Sportsmen are voting red, you are behind the times. Right or wrong could be debated, but sportsman are looking at deep blue CA, CO and WA and saying no way to the animal rights agenda progress and the party in control in those states.

 

[MTTW]

I think you are mostly right for western MT, May be a different story in eastern Montana where productivity is better and winter is less of an issue.

I did find some supper sized mule deer antlers in Yellowstone park in the early 90's when the over sized northern elk herd was absolutely piss pounding the range. Too bad I couldn't keep them.

I think it is about winter range. Thousands of mule deer used to winter on the lowlands in the Boulder and Paradise valleys. Many of these came from the park. Today it is dozens. Many hundreds of elk on what used to be the low winter range today. Big herds of elk laying behind Arrowhead school in the Pray area of Paradise valley and other areas in the winter now. There were zero elk on the valley floor in the 1990s, they didn't even fence the haystacks.
The area around Daley Lake/Dome Mountain refuge used to crawl with mule deer in the winter. Today the elk try to stay on the valley floor even when they shoot cows in the late season, they move off but will not go over the hill.

Fridley creek, 8 mile creek, North Dry creek, Bullis creek, Antelope Butte, all had hundreds of mule deer wintering on them back then. Today... hundreds of elk and a few dozen mule deer.
For years I thought it was predators and predators definitely have changed the areas that elk use. Recently I have been hunting an area that used to be very good Mule deer country but now has very few. It has a large elk herd. Surprisingly to me there are quite a few Whitetails, even up to 7000 feet, though I have seen zero mule deer in 6 days so far. I can't see predators killing all of the mule deer but not Whitetails.

Anyway, some day we will have a study, or Wyoming will, that sheds some light on the situation. Meanwhile, anyone with a memory of what used to be around here creeps closer to ageing out. Regions 6 and 7 are going to have to pick up the slack. Lol

 

[antlerradar]

I think it is about winter range. Thousands of mule deer used to winter on the lowlands in the Boulder and Paradise valleys. Many of these came from the park. Today it is dozens. Many hundreds of elk on what used to be the low winter range today. Big herds of elk laying behind Arrowhead school in the Pray area of Paradise valley and other areas in the winter now. There were zero elk on the valley floor in the 1990s, they didn't even fence the haystacks.
The area around Daley Lake/Dome Mountain refuge used to crawl with mule deer in the winter. Today the elk try to stay on the valley floor even when they shoot cows in the late season, they move off but will not go over the hill.

Fridley creek, 8 mile creek, North Dry creek, Bullis creek, Antelope Butte, Bullis creek, all had hundreds of mule deer wintering on them back then. Today... hundreds of elk and a few dozen mule deer.
For years I thought it was predators and predators definitely have changed the areas that elk use. Recently I have been hunting an area that used to be very good Mule deer country but now has very few. It has a large elk herd. Surprisingly to me there are quite a few Whitetails, even up to 7000 feet, though I have seen zero mule deer in 6 days so far. I can't see predators killing all of the mule deer but not Whitetails.

Anyway, some day we will have a study, or Wyoming will, that sheds some light on the situation. Meanwhile, anyone with a memory of what used to be around here creeps closer to ageing out. Regions 6 and 7 are going to have to pick up the slack. Lol

Sound like that listing under the ESA could be sooner than I thought.

 

[SAJ-99]

If you think that guns are the main reason Sportsmen are voting red, you are behind the times. Right or wrong could be debated, but sportsman are looking at deep blue CA, CO and WA and saying no way to the animal rights agenda progress and the party in control in those states.

Using the argument that UPOM is better than PETA, voters will eventually get transferable LO tags to save hunting.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Using the argument that UPOM is better than PETA, voters will eventually get transferable LO tags to save hunting.

I'd take PETA

At least they don't gaslight their mission.

 

[Carnage2011]

If you think that guns are the main reason Sportsmen are voting red, you are behind the times. Right or wrong could be debated, but sportsman are looking at deep blue CA, CO and WA and saying no way to the animal rights agenda progress and the party in control in those states.

This is 100% accurate.

 

[Big Fin]

@Big Fin maybe a fresh tracks weekly topic? It'd be good to spread information- especially with the CE being in the political arena here in MT lately.

Would love to know about other states too...

We’ve done one on that. When I get home I’ll try to find it and post a link here.

 

[antlerradar]

Using the argument that UPOM is better than PETA, voters will eventually get transferable LO tags to save hunting.

UPOM and PETA kind of cancel each other out and voters look to other issues to base there vote on also.
Votes happen on the margins, Eliminate PETA and the sportsman vote swings to the left, eliminate UPOM and the vote wings to the right. This is clearly like trying to push the same polarity ends of two magnets together. Both sides are pushing voters into the others camp.

 

[SAJ-99]

UPOM and PETA kind of cancel each other out and voters look to other issues to base there vote on also.
Votes happen on the margins, Eliminate PETA and the sportsman vote swings to the left, eliminate UPOM and the vote wings to the right. This is clearly like trying to push the same polarity ends of two magnets together. Both sides are pushing voters into the others camp.

Unfortunately, Montanans get the same internet as everyone else. Same news and media feeds. Even in traditional media, I can’t remember a PETA sign or anything similar in the 10yrs I lived there or the times lately I have visited. UPOM signs are pretty common, particularly in central MT. I think the decision on camps has been made. I’m not sure what would it take to change it.

 

[antlerradar]

Unfortunately, Montanans get the same internet as everyone else. Same news and media feeds. Even in traditional media, I can’t remember a PETA sign or anything similar in the 10yrs I lived there or the times lately I have visited. UPOM signs are pretty common, particularly in central MT. I think the decision on camps has been made. I’m not sure what would it take to change it.

Just proves that the old stand by that "all elections are local" doesn't carry as much weight anymore.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Just proves that the old stand by that "all elections are local" doesn't carry as much weight anymore.

And it seems that voters don't like to elect middle-class, down-to-earth real Montanans anymore.

 

[antlerradar]

And it seems that voters don't like to elect middle-class, down-to-earth real Montanans anymore.

Not nearly as many "real Montanans" left when you look at percentages.

 

[BWALKER77]

To me block management is nothing but a give away to Ranchers. Most of it is completely shot out.

 

[Forkyfinder]

To me block management is nothing but a give away to Ranchers. Most of it is completely shot out.

I'm actually inclined to think it's the opposite.

I'm more inclined to think that if it paid a lot less - but pressure was a lot less there'd be more in it.

 

[Nameless Range]

To me block management is nothing but a give away to Ranchers. Most of it is completely shot out.

I think this statement is false as hell and have the protein to prove it, but even if granted as true, one could say that's the case anywhere the public can hunt. The latter would be far worse though, if those millions of acres weren't on offer and the 600,000+ user days that occur on block management were to transfer in large part to public lands.

Our perpetually growing problem is season/tag allocation structure, and if we improved that I think the amount of access and the quality of our experiences on that access be it BM or otherwise, would improve with it.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think this statement is false as hell and have the protein to prove it, but even if granted as true, one could say that's the case anywhere the public can hunt. The latter would be far worse though, if those millions of acres weren't on offer and the 600,000+ user days that occur on block management were to transfer in large part to public lands.

Our perpetually growing problem is season/tag allocation structure, and if we improved that I think the amount of access and the quality of our experiences on that access be it BM or otherwise, would improve with it.

 

[BWALKER77]

I think this statement is false as hell and have the protein to prove it, but even if granted as true, one could say that's the case anywhere the public can hunt. The latter would be far worse though, if those millions of acres weren't on offer and the 600,000+ user days that occur on block management were to transfer in large part to public lands.

Our perpetually growing problem is season/tag allocation structure, and if we improved that I think the amount of access and the quality of our experiences on that access be it BM or otherwise, would improve with it.

I agree with your last paragraph. However, I stand by what I have said. At least in parts of the state I hunt.

 

[SaskHunter]

Not nearly as many "real Montanans" left when you look at percentages.

Is it really about "real Montanans" or someone who you share values with? Chances are, you and I share more values and ideas than those rich guys from Montana/out-of-State I kept hearing about on the radio, on my drive down to Wyoming back in October.

People are rallying to take/vote for sides (Left Vs Right), rather than individuals and their ideas, and it's starting to show more and more.

 

[Horseman]

To me block management is nothing but a give away to Ranchers. Most of it is completely shot out.

I have had surprisingly great hunting on Block management land. The BMA properties that I’ve hunted have been worth whatever fwp is paying, maybe more. I’m very grateful for this program.