ND Game and Fish coming under fire for CWD Management

[DGND]

Ta-Da....

Long-distance movement is directed at ranging and migration (14). Ranging involves exploring a new area and locating a new home range, and the behaviour stops when this is found. In contrast, the function of migration is to actively relocate the insect to a habitat that is, or will be, better equipped with resources than the present habitat (26). The long-distance movement of insects is most efficiently achieved by utilising the rapid winds situated above the FBL (27). Though the numbers are extremely small, Culicoides midges have been collected at altitudes of up to 300 m in North America (28), 900 m in Mexico, 4,000 m in Louisiana (29) and 2,000 m in Kenya (30); these observations underpin the assumption that Culicoides are transported over long distances on winds. Insects are cold-blooded and Culicoides midges and mosquitoes are active at temperatures between 10 and 35°C; therefore, for midges and mosquitoes to survive transportation by winds above the FBL, the winds should be warm: 15 to 20°C at night or 20 to 40°C by day (31).

 

[JLS]

Ta-Da....

(26). The long-distance movement of insects is most efficiently achieved by utilising the rapid winds situated above the FBL (27). Though the numbers are extremely small, Culicoides midges have been collected at altitudes of up to 300 m in North America (28), 900 m in Mexico, 4,000 m in Louisiana (29) and 2,000 m in Kenya (30); these observations underpin the assumption that Culicoides are transported over long distances on winds. Insects are cold-blooded and Culicoides midges and mosquitoes are active at temperatures between 10 and 35°C; therefore, for midges and mosquitoes to survive transportation by winds above the FBL, the winds should be warm: 15 to 20°C at night or 20 to 40°C by day (31).

Every EHD outbreak I have witnessed has show the same commonality. Extreme and prolonged drought.

Now, back to how artificially congregating deer won’t result in higher transmission of CWD.

 

[TheTone]

What a bummer to use actual skills and techniques

 

[wct12]

Every EHD outbreak I have witnessed has show the same commonality. Extreme and prolonged drought.

Now, back to how artificially congregating deer won’t result in higher transmission of CWD.

Look at my numbers I posted.. A massive spike years 9-12 after a baiting restriction.. The game and fish says a 10 year study is needed, well that is 10+ years and after a massive spike in a unit that's the best data collection point in the state, they are just moving away from testing there now? After 12 years and a spike that doesn't fit their narrative?

When 2 or less deer per year were being found positive they held up 3f2 as the example.. Now they are throwing it out the window. Why?

 

[JLS]

Why?

Must be the deep state.

 

[wct12]

Must be the deep state.

Or it doesn't fit their narrative that baiting restrictions long term actually help slow the spread of CWD?

 

[pigsticker]

I get a kick out of the guys on here who say that baiting isn't fair chase, or that anybody who uses bait is lazy. Or that they feel sorry for kids learning to hunt over bait because they will lack learning skills. Or that people who use bait aren't real hunters. You couldn't make it any more obvious that you consider your personal methods for hunting as superior and revere yourself as the role model hunter. These kinds of statements are pure opinion, and it's sad that this is how you view other hunters and how they choose to pursue game.

While you've got those blinders on, you should get rid of any of your modern gear, such as compound bows, range finders, GPS, or anything else that gives you an unfair advantage over hunting wild game, because using those modern tools to your advantage sure isn't hunting if using something as basic and archaic as placing some bait to harvest game is considered unethical. I can guarantee you, people were using bait to harvest wildlife hundreds, if not thousands of years before your magnified scope or your 80% let off compound bow with slider sight were around.

Quit trying to impose your personal beliefs or ethics on others. What doesn't work for you ethically, might work well for others, and who are you to judge anyone that wants to use a tool to help provide an opportunity to put food on the table as they see fit? If you don't like baiting, don't do it. But don't smash others in the hunting community and advocate to eliminate a tool from those who can benefit from its use just because you don't agree with it based on your internal conflict that "it's not real hunting" or "it's lazy". Keep your ethics to yourself, because that is exactly what they are, your personal codes of conduct. I know you won't appreciate it when someone attacks your beliefs and tries to take your method of hunting away.

So, let's just leave these types of points or arguments out of this discussion please.

 

[3855WIN]

Is baiting even a very effective technique? Do many old mature bucks get harvested on bait piles? Maybe I am ignorant to the ways of the master baiters?

In the post above you said baiting is not fair chase. Then you ask if it’s a very effective technique. Which is it?

 

[3855WIN]

I hunt in a hot zone in Louisiana. We went from legal baiting to it being illegal in a small area. The department began flying planes and drones to catch baiters. All well and good, but what’s the plan to deal with CWD? Turn in heads to test. Ok, it’s out there, now what? We’re on DMAP, yet not a word from our biologist about what we should do as a property to fight CWD.
Mississippi has similar communication problems. They post on IG that there’s 63 positive cases this year. No info about counties. These departments are terrible at communicating with the public.
Mississippi State University conducted research that says, on average, 12 bucks visit a scrape. CWD is passed through saliva, feeces, and urine. This tells me that CWD will be passed through scrapes to your deer herd.

 

[3855WIN]

The USDA should eliminate high fence game enclosures nation wide to slow CWD. In Mississippi, we have a commission member who wants to import deer into his enclosure. At present, that’s illegal.

MDWFP’s commission believes it has authority granted through the Mississippi Code Section 49-7-58(3) to promulgate rules and regulations for white-tailed deer in enclosures. Commissioners wanted to know if they could promulgate rules so deer in high-fenced enclosures could be traded by registered white-tailed deer captive breeders.

Read more at: https://www.dailyleader.com/2023/01...ss-legalizing-sale-of-live-white-tailed-deer/

 

[rogerthat]

Bottom line, baiting is not viewed positively by non-hunters and many hunters. As such it’s more ammo for the antis. I’m going to actively advocate against activities that paint hunting in a negative light. It’s not the only way to hunt and still be effective. You wouldn’t have to bait if your neighbors weren’t all baiting. It’s called woodmanship skills.

I remember watching the outdoor channel and seeing the wild game innovation turds on with a pile of acorn rage in front of their stands and thinking “what a bunch of losers that don’t know how to hunt”. My view hasn’t changed.

 

[wct12]

I get a kick out of the guys on here who say that baiting isn't fair chase, or that anybody who uses bait is lazy. Or that they feel sorry for kids learning to hunt over bait because they will lack learning skills. Or that people who use bait aren't real hunters. You couldn't make it any more obvious that you consider your personal methods for hunting as superior and revere yourself as the role model hunter. These kinds of statements are pure opinion, and it's sad that this is how you view other hunters and how they choose to pursue game.

While you've got those blinders on, you should get rid of any of your modern gear, such as compound bows, range finders, GPS, or anything else that gives you an unfair advantage over hunting wild game, because using those modern tools to your advantage sure isn't hunting if using something as basic and archaic as placing some bait to harvest game is considered unethical. I can guarantee you, people were using bait to harvest wildlife hundreds, if not thousands of years before your magnified scope or your 80% let off compound bow with slider sight were around.

Quit trying to impose your personal beliefs or ethics on others. What doesn't work for you ethically, might work well for others, and who are you to judge anyone that wants to use a tool to help provide an opportunity to put food on the table as they see fit? If you don't like baiting, don't do it. But don't smash others in the hunting community and advocate to eliminate a tool from those who can benefit from its use just because you don't agree with it based on your internal conflict that "it's not real hunting" or "it's lazy". Keep your ethics to yourself, because that is exactly what they are, your personal codes of conduct. I know you won't appreciate it when someone attacks your beliefs and tries to take your method of hunting away.

So, let's just leave these types of points or arguments out of this discussion please.

It always boils back down to the ethics side of things.. When ND Game and Fish came out in 07 and 09 trying to get a statewide ban through the legislature, they said it was about ethics.. Now that the tables are turned, it's all "science and data" for them.. yet they choose to move away from the most valuable science and data that comes from in state..

On the ethics side of things.. I would be very very curious what the hit, kill and recovery rate is on spot and stalk in North Dakota is versus over a bait pile. It seems like the last few years the amount of requests for tracking dogs needed after questionable shots in the state keeps increasing, with a pretty good chunk of them coming from the western half of the state.. Is that random, or does it correlate to something else?

 

[NDGuy]

Is that random, or does it correlate to something else?

Bowmar/Hanes/The Gram

 

[wct12]

Bowmar/Hanes/The Gram

"110 yard shot on monster muley" "watch me not close the distance and Kentucky windage this Pope and Young Whitetail".. People think that things like bait piles are what shed a negative light on the hunting industry. It's goons like Bowmars and the likes that get likes by putting out wild captions and kill pictures.. and the way they gain popularity anymore is to put up pictures with 200" deer, no matter how questionable of a shot it was.

 

[rogerthat]

"110 yard shot on monster muley" "watch me not close the distance and Kentucky windage this Pope and Young Whitetail".. People think that things like bait piles are what shed a negative light on the hunting industry. It's goons like Bowmars and the likes that get likes by putting out wild captions and kill pictures.. and the way they gain popularity anymore is to put up pictures with 200" deer, no matter how questionable of a shot it was.

I agree. Baiting and this shed a negative light. Ban them both

 

[Big Fin]

I get a kick out of the guys on here who say that baiting isn't fair chase, or that anybody who uses bait is lazy. Or that they feel sorry for kids learning to hunt over bait because they will lack learning skills. Or that people who use bait aren't real hunters. You couldn't make it any more obvious that you consider your personal methods for hunting as superior and revere yourself as the role model hunter. These kinds of statements are pure opinion, and it's sad that this is how you view other hunters and how they choose to pursue game.

While you've got those blinders on, you should get rid of any of your modern gear, such as compound bows, range finders, GPS, or anything else that gives you an unfair advantage over hunting wild game, because using those modern tools to your advantage sure isn't hunting if using something as basic and archaic as placing some bait to harvest game is considered unethical. I can guarantee you, people were using bait to harvest wildlife hundreds, if not thousands of years before your magnified scope or your 80% let off compound bow with slider sight were around.

Quit trying to impose your personal beliefs or ethics on others. What doesn't work for you ethically, might work well for others, and who are you to judge anyone that wants to use a tool to help provide an opportunity to put food on the table as they see fit? If you don't like baiting, don't do it. But don't smash others in the hunting community and advocate to eliminate a tool from those who can benefit from its use just because you don't agree with it based on your internal conflict that "it's not real hunting" or "it's lazy". Keep your ethics to yourself, because that is exactly what they are, your personal codes of conduct. I know you won't appreciate it when someone attacks your beliefs and tries to take your method of hunting away.

So, let's just leave these types of points or arguments out of this discussion please.

I've been on the road for a week and I see some new members have shown up on this thread to advocate taking the powers away from the North Dakotas wildlife agency. To me, that is the real issue. It's not about baiting. It's about "I'm gonna do whatever the hell I want and I will use the legislative power and my connections to make sure of that."

Not the first time legislatures have been asked to do so and it won't be the last. But, it is the first time I've seen hunters leading the effort to take powers away from an agency.

I don't gave a damn if people bait. I don't care if they shoot stuff in fenced enclosures. Knock yourself out.

But, I do care when state agencies are gutted by the political process for whatever happens to be the political stripe of the day. I find it ironic that folks want to say agencies should be allowed to manage our wildlife, until such management happens to go against what they want.

I read these comments supporting the bill to take powers away from ND G&F and it comes across as the meddling that happens when folks don't get their way, not necessarily the issue at hand. In this case it just happens to be around the issue of baiting.

What's the next power that needs to be taken away from the wildlife agency? Daily limits on fish? Bag limits on birds? Shooting at night? Season dates? Where does the effort of hunters to take powers from the wildlife agency stop?

In most states when this happens, it is some profiteers who are trying to take powers away from the wildlife agency for their own self-interest, and the hunters are the opposition to that effort. In this case, it is strange (and disappointing) to see hunters advocating for the neutering of the agency.

Carry on ........

 

[BlakeA]

I get a kick out of the guys on here who say that baiting isn't fair chase, or that anybody who uses bait is lazy. Or that they feel sorry for kids learning to hunt over bait because they will lack learning skills.

OK Matt,

1.) To me, it isn't. Especially the crap that goes on up here in ND.
2.) To me, it is lazy. The overwhelmingly majority of guys hunting over bait are incredibly lazy.
3.) I do feel sorry for kids hunting over bait. What hunting/outdoor skills are they developing and honing while they wait? Gaming? Scrolling? I mean, they know the deer are coming in and probably have it down to the exact minute of when specific bucks will "come in" due to having 10 different cameras setup on the property. So it's essentially called killing because the success rate is about 100% and there are never any wounded animals. What skillset is required? After the season, what are the kids excited to have to work on, improve on, and learn about going into the next year? So if I come off being judgy for wanting kids to truly have a wild experience than I guess I am being judgy.

While you've got those blinders on, you should get rid of any of your modern gear, such as compound bows, range finders, GPS, or anything else that gives you an unfair advantage over hunting wild game, because using those modern tools to your advantage sure isn't hunting if using something as basic and archaic as placing some bait to harvest game is considered unethical.

I would be more than happy getting rid of a range finder and compound and rolling with a recurve. I love shooting recurve and it is an absolute blast to hunt with! I would also be happy if GPS went away but there has to be something available to the public to help prevent landowners from posting property and blocking access that they don't own or have authority to do so.

But don't smash others in the hunting community

What hunting community are you speaking of? I don't see much for a good "community" these days here in ND. It's strictly trending towards who can own more land, block off more land, restrict more land, who can place higher at trophy night, and just a constant big dick contest between some of the most arrogant humans you could possibly meet. I see very little that truly cares about the habitat, public access, and the health of the public resource. It's all about greed. The whole "hunters need to stick together" is a bunch of bs to me. When you strip it down the the absolute core, I personally have very little in common with many in the hunting community that you speak of here in ND and I'm perfectly OK with that.

You have to realize that 99% of folks on this forum live somewhere where baiting is illegal and has been for quite some time. They are also primarily public land DIY hunters. Obviously, their view of people killing deer over bait on private land isn't relatable and the entire concept of that method of hunting comes off as lazy.

I don't think anyone here is saying their way of hunting is the almighty and only way to hunt, they just don't support killing deer over bait piles. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone and I never have. But when the topic comes up and it is being discussed, I'll share by views. Not that they matter anyways. So it's agree to disagree.

 

[NDGuy]

What hunting community are you speaking of? I don't see much for a good "community" these days here in ND. It's strictly trending towards who can own more land, block off more land, restrict more land, who can place higher at trophy night, and just a constant big dick contest between some of the most arrogant humans you could possibly meet. I see very little that truly cares about the habitat, public access, and the health of the public resource. It's all about greed. The whole "hunters need to stick together" is a bunch of bs to me.

Man...this is so accurate it's nauseating. It's something I have often though about as well but haven't been able to state it as well as this.

 

[SAJ-99]

I get a kick out of the guys on here who say that baiting isn't fair chase, or that anybody who uses bait is lazy. Or that they feel sorry for kids learning to hunt over bait because they will lack learning skills. Or that people who use bait aren't real hunters.

I kind of agree. I mean sitting in a ground blind or tree stand over a pile of corn technically puts a person in the outdoors, but personally I don't think I could call myself an outdoorsman if I did it. Wait...how far away is the parked truck?

And yet again.. Not one attempt at answering my questions.

I looked back and can't find your questions, other than "who holds F&G accountable?". Sorry, I'm not looking up and reading the ND state constitution. Everyone reports to someone. That isn't the question though. The question is who do you want making the decisions and how should they be based, best known science or the whims of the masses?

Regarding CWD, very knowledgable people have already posted a ton of info for you. You do not like the answers, so why should anyone else waste their time?

 

[wct12]

I kind of agree. I mean sitting in a ground blind or tree stand over a pile of corn technically puts a person in the outdoors, but personally I don't think I could call myself an outdoorsman if I did it. Wait...how far away is the parked truck?


I looked back and can't find your questions, other than "who holds F&G accountable?". Sorry, I'm not looking up and reading the ND state constitution. Everyone reports to someone. That isn't the question though. The question is who do you want making the decisions and how should they be based, best known science or the whims of the masses?

Regarding CWD, very knowledgable people have already posted a ton of info for you. You do not like the answers, so why should anyone else waste their time?

Our state constitution literally gives the legislature the authority to do things like this. IT states by "law and regulation".

I will be talking about some data that the Game and Fish has been collecting from unit 3F2. CWD was first found in state in 2009 in 3F2, with the Game and Fish implementing a ban on hunting over bait through their 2010 CWD Proclamation, even after a bill to ban baiting introduced into the legislature in 2007 and 2009 was shot down.



70 positive CWD cases have been found in North Dakota in 13 years of testing. 48 of these cases have come from 3f2, or 68.6% of all positives. In the last 3 years of released data, 2019-2021, 34 of 52 positives have come from 3F2, or 65% of positives from that time frame, even though the baiting restriction had been in place for 9 years prior.



In North Dakota since 2009 there has been 1 deer found dead our state where they say CWD was the possible cause of death, but are unable with 100% certainty to say that CWD was the direct cause. This deer was found dead, then tested positive.



After running through those numbers and remembering a baiting restriction has been in place now for 12 years total in 3F2, has that restriction the Game and Fish implemented been effective at impacting spread beyond a normal, natural deer to deer interaction, especially after the drastic spike the last 3 years?



At a Minot CWD meeting this past year, the Game and Fish Department stated they are moving away from data collection in 3F2. This has been the data collection site in the state that could back up the science they want us to believe… That a baiting restriction slows the spread of CWD, yet they are moving away from data there, specifically after the huge leap in positives the last 3 years. Perhaps the data and science does NOT match the narrative and agenda.


That is a condensed version of the written testimony I submitted.. my longer version contains the links and more data and all of that fun jazz, but I have yet to have any one answer the couple of questions that have been asked in there. Why are we going away from results in 3F2? Where are all the dead deer at? Where is the accountability for the game and fish department when they eradicated 50 something deer by Williston, with out a single positive, just to dump them in the garbage and not even donate the meat?

Who gets to hold the game and fish accountable? This was attempted twice through the legislature previously. "We the People" spoke out and got it shot down, and then the game and fish wrote a CWD specific proclamation to back door a baiting restriction after going 0 for 2. I have sat through advisory board meetings and CWD specific meetings where sportsmen's concerns were turned on deaf ears on this topic and a vast amount of others. There has been 0 accountability for a government branch that is headed by an appointed position that has literally chosen to ignore what the people of the state spoke for and has literally shown their inability to manage the deer herds in the past, having to give out a surplus of tags (100,000 +) after not listening to people that see these herd every single deer for multiple years at a time at advisory board meetings.. the only thing that saved their tail was a winter where literally hundreds or thousands of dead deer were killed by the elements.

My family has deer hunted the last few years with out the ability to bait and have had success.. This is due to our habitat implementation practices that we have done, but others aren't as fortunate. It might pain me to see it but there is way more tree rows and sloughs and habitat disappearing from our area then there is going in. Spot and stalk is fun, heck.. It's a blast. But on our flat land with 0 cover it's not feasible. I have enjoyed watching many youth and other folks set out and harvest deer, many first deer, off of our property.. including 100+ folks that fall mother nature intervened.. all while only losing 1 animal due to a bad shot.. With out a bait pile as a tool for those people, and to help remove 100+ deer out of our yard.. how many more deer would have perished to the elements?

There are lots of valid concerns on both sides, but unless they can prove with out a doubt.. no maybes, can or can not, no possibles.. why should a tool that has been so helpful, for myself and others, be targeted.. all while the game and fish funds programs meant to congregate deer themselves.


That's my initial post. Then some follow up questions.

Who holds them accountable?
Why are they moving away from 3F2 for data collection?
Does banning baiting with out a doubt slow the spread of CWD.. Not Maybe, Not could. Does it?
Where are all the dead deer in Nodak the game and fish talks about? There has been 1 possible death.
Is over population worse for disease spreading, or a bait pile?

I have said it before.. If they can prove without a doubt a pile of corn will spread CWD at a higher rate then natural deer interactions that happen every day (and in food plots), I will change my opinion. This has 0 to do with ethics on my side of the argument.. but opposition always goes back to ethics. My numbers posted have proved that after 10 years a baiting restriction didn't slow the spread, those numbers are straight from the Game and Fish website, but yet they are ignored at advisory board meetings. Look at tag trends in Nodak. The Game and Fish want's to maintain 75,000 rifle tags.. they went from 140,000 something tags down to a rapid decline into the 40,000s (Mother nature played a big roll in this) but the habitat in north dakota has changed rapidly, with their deer number counts still coming from the same areas making them inaccurate... Their management strategy on moose tags is "a population that landowners are willing to deal with" (straight from Jeb Williams at the Minot advisory board meeting last year).. That seems like a solid management strategy to me.

I just want the agency that has 0 accountability back to the people, who put in their constitution the specific words law and regulation, to realize that its not their way or the highway. "We can fund programs to congregate deer, We can run an intercept feeding program, we can do herd eradications and then perform wanton waste" all with no accountability. All the Game and Fish has to do is prove that a baiting restriction slows the spread and the legislators will side with them. If enough doubt or proofs are posed on the other side, well then maybe there is some of that accountability back to the people they are supposed to be serving.