ND Game and Fish coming under fire for CWD Management

[wct12]

OK Matt,

1.) To me, it isn't. Especially the crap that goes on up here in ND.
2.) To me, it is lazy. The overwhelmingly majority of guys hunting over bait are incredibly lazy.
3.) I do feel sorry for kids hunting over bait. What hunting/outdoor skills are they developing and honing while they wait? Gaming? Scrolling? I mean, they know the deer are coming in and probably have it down to the exact minute of when specific bucks will "come in" due to having 10 different cameras setup on the property. So it's essentially called killing because the success rate is about 100% and there are never any wounded animals. What skillset is required? After the season, what are the kids excited to have to work on, improve on, and learn about going into the next year? So if I come off being judgy for wanting kids to truly have a wild experience than I guess I am being judgy.



I would be more than happy getting rid of a range finder and compound and rolling with a recurve. I love shooting recurve and it is an absolute blast to hunt with! I would also be happy if GPS went away but there has to be something available to the public to help prevent landowners from posting property and blocking access that they don't own or have authority to do so.



What hunting community are you speaking of? I don't see much for a good "community" these days here in ND. It's strictly trending towards who can own more land, block off more land, restrict more land, who can place higher at trophy night, and just a constant big dick contest between some of the most arrogant humans you could possibly meet. I see very little that truly cares about the habitat, public access, and the health of the public resource. It's all about greed. The whole "hunters need to stick together" is a bunch of bs to me. When you strip it down the the absolute core, I personally have very little in common with many in the hunting community that you speak of here in ND and I'm perfectly OK with that.

You have to realize that 99% of folks on this forum live somewhere where baiting is illegal and has been for quite some time. They are also primarily public land DIY hunters. Obviously, their view of people killing deer over bait on private land isn't relatable and the entire concept of that method of hunting comes off as lazy.

I don't think anyone here is saying their way of hunting is the almighty and only way to hunt, they just don't support killing deer over bait piles. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone and I never have. But when the topic comes up and it is being discussed, I'll share by views. Not that they matter anyways. So it's agree to disagree.

I know I'm going to get drug for this since it's an outdoor forum and that's the route this usually goes but.. This is why the divide keeps getting larger between land owners and hunters.. I am both, and we invest in habitat and let others hunt our property that were not specifically hunting at that time, but the amount of guys that talk bad because we have our land posted is unreal. Have they ever asked to hunt? No. They just say since I have it posted I'm an a**.

I hunt multiple other states every year and have relationships with other land owners up here and in other states to the extent they now call when they see something exciting on their land whether it be furbearers or waterfowl or upland.. Keeping and maintaining those friendships and relationships even in other states is what can make a massive difference in the future, and something I wish more people would do. Especially since we aren't fortunate enough to live in a state that is blessed with a pile of acres that are great habitat and public.

 

[wct12]

I've been on the road for a week and I see some new members have shown up on this thread to advocate taking the powers away from the North Dakotas wildlife agency. To me, that is the real issue. It's not about baiting. It's about "I'm gonna do whatever the hell I want and I will use the legislative power and my connections to make sure of that."

Not the first time legislatures have been asked to do so and it won't be the last. But, it is the first time I've seen hunters leading the effort to take powers away from an agency.

I don't gave a damn if people bait. I don't care if they shoot stuff in fenced enclosures. Knock yourself out.

But, I do care when state agencies are gutted by the political process for whatever happens to be the political stripe of the day. I find it ironic that folks want to say agencies should be allowed to manage our wildlife, until such management happens to go against what they want.

I read these comments supporting the bill to take powers away from ND G&F and it comes across as the meddling that happens when folks don't get their way, not necessarily the issue at hand. In this case it just happens to be around the issue of baiting.

What's the next power that needs to be taken away from the wildlife agency? Daily limits on fish? Bag limits on birds? Shooting at night? Season dates? Where does the effort of hunters to take powers from the wildlife agency stop?

In most states when this happens, it is some profiteers who are trying to take powers away from the wildlife agency for their own self-interest, and the hunters are the opposition to that effort. In this case, it is strange (and disappointing) to see hunters advocating for the neutering of the agency.

Carry on ........

The game and fish tried to take these powers away through the legislature. Twice, and failed both times. Then backdoored it into the proclamation. If the game and fish can prove their science and data sound then the legislature has an easy choice. If they can't, maybe this is a valid argument ethics aside.

When data and points that the game and fish has put out themselves, but now chooses to ignore that data and move away from it when it doesn't fit their narrative.. They are being held accountable how they can be. What stops a department with an appointed director from doing those things you asked themselves, besides a governor signing that proclamation the director who is appointed by the governor himself? Bag limits, shooting times.. checks and balances.. That is all that is wanted.

 

[BlakeA]

the amount of guys that talk bad because we have our land posted is unreal. Have they ever asked to hunt? No. They just say since I have it posted I'm an a**.

1.) Who's talking "bad" because you post your land? It's your land, you can do whatever you want.
2.) Who has said you or any other landowner that posts their land is an ass because of it?
3.) I don't know who you are but believe me, I have zero interest in hunting your land.

I hunt multiple other states every year and have relationships with other land owners up here and in other states to the extent they now call when they see something exciting on their land whether it be furbearers or waterfowl or upland.. Keeping and maintaining those friendships and relationships even in other states is what can make a massive difference in the future, and something I wish more people would do.

I'm glad that you have hunt swaps with other landowners in other states. That's great.

Explain to me more about why the divide is growing between landowners and hunters? I'm confused. I have some great relationships with landowners even though I don't hunt their land. They are just flat out great people and I enjoy being friends with them. What exactly did I say that is contributing to a "divide"?

 

[wct12]

1.) Who's talking "bad" because you post your land? It's your land, you can do whatever you want.
2.) Who has said you or any other landowner that posts their land is an ass because of it?
3.) I don't know who you are but believe me, I have zero interest in hunting your land.


I'm glad that you have hunt swaps with other landowners in other states. That's great.

Explain to me more about why the divide is growing between landowners and hunters? I'm confused. I have some great relationships with landowners even though I don't hunt their land. They are just flat out great people and I enjoy being friends with them. What exactly did I say that is contributing to a "divide"?

It happens on every post as soon as someone mentions they are a landowner, I can post links to 100 forums when it goes that way as soon as someone mentions they own land and post it. And wasn't specifically talking about you wanting to hunt it, but trust me.. others want to.

"It's strictly trending towards who can own more land, block off more land, restrict more land, who can place higher at trophy night, and just a constant big dick contest between some of the most arrogant humans you could possibly meet. I see very little that truly cares about the habitat, public access, and the health of the public resource. It's all about greed."

-That seems fairly negative towards landowners.. Did you follow 2315 and some forums a couple years ago? That's the trespass bill into the legislator a couple years ago. There was a fairly large wedge driven those years between landowners and hunters. If you think there isn't a divide, unfortunately, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[BlakeA]

It happens on every post as soon as someone mentions they are a landowner, I can post links to 100 forums when it goes that way as soon as someone mentions they own land and post it. And wasn't specifically talking about you wanting to hunt it, but trust me.. others want to.

I'm not on other forums and I'm not on FB so I can't speak for folks you are engaging with elsewhere. I've never read anyone on HT calling landowners assholes just because they are doing something well within their rights, posting their land. I also do not recall anyone on here ever bashing people because they own land. So let's not compare other forums and crap out there to this place.

"It's strictly trending towards who can own more land, block off more land, restrict more land, who can place higher at trophy night, and just a constant big dick contest between some of the most arrogant humans you could possibly meet. I see very little that truly cares about the habitat, public access, and the health of the public resource. It's all about greed."

What is false about any of this? If the facts in what I said bother you, it's because it's part of your circle.

If you think there isn't a divide, unfortunately, you are sadly mistaken.

I'm not going to be fake and act like I want to have or build a relationship with someone that's a egocentric asshole just so I can shoot one of "his" deer over bait off his property. I'll pass.

 

[MNElkNut]

Having read this whole thing, I have some observations. I have no dog in the fight, so I read this with interest without a preconceived position. This is not directed at anyone in particular. Oh, and yes, I am quite familiar with hunting in ND.

* It is common sense that artificially congregating animals at a pinpoint location is going to increase the spread of a disease faster. To argue otherwise or that a study is needed is crazy.
* To counter that claim by saying, "Tell me what is different about....food plots, hay bales, ag fields, etc" is only trying to deflect. Of course they spread things too, but as was mentioned, bait piles are low hanging fruit. It is easy to outlaw baiting. Way easier than outlawing ag fields. They are points sources. Food plots may very well be the next to be banned. Should a definitive, peer reviewed, blindly-funded study come out that says bait sites pose no increase in disease transmission, boom, baiting can be legal again overnight.
* Nobody should want politicians making natural resource decisions over wildlife professionals. That is a recipe for disaster setting that precedent. With the political climate we have right now, natural resource decisions would be a made via a pendulum depending on who is in power at the time. Does anybody really want game and fish decisions to be made by what side can hire the best lobbyists?
* What is the narrative that has been mentioned? Is there evidence of this? Is it published? Or is it a sound bite only intended to make the ND G&F look like they have some big conspiracy?

 

[SAJ-99]

Who holds them accountable?

I’m sure the department was created by statute. You just have to do a little work to find out. Sure The legislature makes laws. Those laws define the scope of NDGF tasks. In this case we have someone proposing specific legislature to prevent them from doing their task.

Does banning baiting with out a doubt slow the spread of CWD.. Not Maybe, Not could. Does it?

You will never be convinced of anything so I wonder why you ask the question. The question requires a baseline of natural spread and then a controlled test on animals fed with corn piles and excluding natural feed. You would fight definitions of terms if the result was anything other than what you believe. Prions are a relatively new discovery. It will take time and money to learn more about them.

Where are all the dead deer in Nodak the game and fish talks about? There has been 1 possible death.

We know that cause of death can be incidental to CWD infection- shot, hit by car, etc. My understanding is it is hard to test dead deer if you don’t know how long they have been dead. Samples can degrade fast. Maybe new and better testing methods can help. But let’s not be looney and say CWD doesn’t kill.

 

[brocksw]

Our state constitution literally gives the legislature the authority to do things like this. IT states by "law and regulation".

https://www.ndlegis.gov/constit/a11.pdf

At a Minot CWD meeting this past year, the Game and Fish Department stated they are moving away from data collection in 3F2. This has been the data collection site in the state that could back up the science they want us to believe… That a baiting restriction slows the spread of CWD, yet they are moving away from data there, specifically after the huge leap in positives the last 3 years. Perhaps the data and science does NOT match the narrative and agenda.

https://gf.nd.gov/sites/default/files/publications/cwd-management-plan-2023-2027.pdf

And discussed here.

70 positive CWD cases have been found in North Dakota in 13 years of testing. 48 of these cases have come from 3f2, or 68.6% of all positives. In the last 3 years of released data, 2019-2021, 34 of 52 positives have come from 3F2, or 65% of positives from that time frame, even though the baiting restriction had been in place for 9 years prior.

That is the entire point of all of these management changes regarding CWD. To slow the spread as much as possible. It has never been about stopping the disease (impossible to do completely more than likely). It's about buying time so that when or if solutions come along we have clean deer and clean landscape to work with. Perhaps baiting and/or feeding bans buy us 5 additonal years with low prevalence? Maybe 20 years? I don't know the answer to that question. Southern Saskatchewan is one of the only open landscapes similar to ND, where baiting/feeding have gone unregulated in the face of CWD. They lead the entire world in prevelence, and they did that faster than any other state or province on record. In approx 22 years since their first positive in the wild, they surpassed Colorado (~42 years w/ CWD), WY (~38 years w/ CWD). That's it, that's the only comparison out there, landscape to landscape.

Who gets to hold the game and fish accountable? This was attempted twice through the legislature previously. "We the People" spoke out and got it shot down, and then the game and fish wrote a CWD specific proclamation to back door a baiting restriction after going 0 for 2. I have sat through advisory board meetings and CWD specific meetings where sportsmen's concerns were turned on deaf ears on this topic and a vast amount of others.

The Governor by law. Also Article XI section 27 of the North Dakota Constitution (above). As well as the references to ND Century Code(below). And 16 public meetings held across the state, and their doors/phone lines/emails open 5 days a week.

But in my opinion you are mistaking a lack of "accountability" for not getting your way. Many in the state wanted statewide baiting bans back in 2009. Was the GF not accountable to them? Many people currently want statewide, year round baiting AND feeding bans. Is the GF not accountable to them? Just because someone doesn't get their way, doesn't mean the GF isn't accountable to their mandated duties (in statute and the constituion) or their trustees (All hunters and members of the public, not just those that use bait or those that don't take CWD seriously).

https://www.ndlegis.gov/cencode/t20-1c01.pdf#nameddest=20p1-01-03

...and here

https://ndlegis.gov/cencode/t20-1c16.pdf

Back to my vacation from HT. Take care.

 

[DGND]

Dr. Bryan Richards (Wisconsin US Geological Survey) above short clip says, "If hunters are truly interested in long term health of deer resources, they may have to accept short term consequences of population reductions for the sake of CWD management."

Below is a podcast with Big Fin, Dr. Charlie Bahnson DVM NDGF and Bryan Richards USGS:

https://www.stitcher.com/show/hunt-...nservation/episode/north-dakota-cwd-211080925

At thirty-four minutes:

No. 1 Carcass movement
No. 2 Targeted culling
No. 3 Baiting restrictions
No. 4 Sharpshooting

 

[wct12]

I’m sure the department was created by statute. You just have to do a little work to find out. Sure The legislature makes laws. Those laws define the scope of NDGF tasks. In this case we have someone proposing specific legislature to prevent them from doing their task.

You will never be convinced of anything so I wonder why you ask the question. The question requires a baseline of natural spread and then a controlled test on animals fed with corn piles and excluding natural feed. You would fight definitions of terms if the result was anything other than what you believe. Prions are a relatively new discovery. It will take time and money to learn more about them.

We know that cause of death can be incidental to CWD infection- shot, hit by car, etc. My understanding is it is hard to test dead deer if you don’t know how long they have been dead. Samples can degrade fast. Maybe new and better testing methods can help. But let’s not be looney and say CWD doesn’t kill.

Prion diseases were known about in the 1700-1800s, with more in-sight into them in the early 1920s..

https://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/physics/brau/H182/Prusiner%20reading/HISTORICAL%20NOTES%20PRION%20DISEASES.pdf

 

[wct12]

View attachment 263695

https://www.ndlegis.gov/constit/a11.pdf

View attachment 263696

https://gf.nd.gov/sites/default/files/publications/cwd-management-plan-2023-2027.pdf

And discussed here.

That is the entire point of all of these management changes regarding CWD. To slow the spread as much as possible. It has never been about stopping the disease (impossible to do completely more than likely). It's about buying time so that when or if solutions come along we have clean deer and clean landscape to work with. Perhaps baiting and/or feeding bans buy us 5 additonal years with low prevalence? Maybe 20 years? I don't know the answer to that question. Southern Saskatchewan is one of the only open landscapes similar to ND, where baiting/feeding have gone unregulated in the face of CWD. They lead the entire world in prevelence, and they did that faster than any other state or province on record. In approx 22 years since their first positive in the wild, they surpassed Colorado (~42 years w/ CWD), WY (~38 years w/ CWD). That's it, that's the only comparison out there, landscape to landscape.


The Governor by law. Also Article XI section 27 of the North Dakota Constitution (above). As well as the references to ND Century Code(below). And 16 public meetings held across the state, and their doors/phone lines/emails open 5 days a week.

But in my opinion you are mistaking a lack of "accountability" for not getting your way. Many in the state wanted statewide baiting bans back in 2009. Was the GF not accountable to them? Many people currently want statewide, year round baiting AND feeding bans. Is the GF not accountable to them? Just because someone doesn't get their way, doesn't mean the GF isn't accountable to their mandated duties (in statute and the constituion) or their trustees (All hunters and members of the public, not just those that use bait or those that don't take CWD seriously).

https://www.ndlegis.gov/cencode/t20-1c01.pdf#nameddest=20p1-01-03

View attachment 263697


...and here

https://ndlegis.gov/cencode/t20-1c16.pdf

View attachment 263698

Back to my vacation from HT. Take care.

Not on my labtop so bear with me..

Thank you for underlining section 27 that literally states what I posted, people don't think that "by law" portion should mean the legislature, but it does.

"Less frequent but more thorough".. so in essence we're moving away from testing there, and hoping for 10%+ Hunter harvest results when they are low single digits now.. less frequent but more thorough is still moving away from every year testing there.

Accountability has nothing to do with getting my way. There's tons of things the game and fish isn't accountable for, and there will likely be legislation introduced to look into overhauling that also. But for the session HB 1151 is the topic of discussion so we will leave it there. Their data they post doesn't agree with the science they want us to believe, and yet they throw that data to the wind.

Many in the state wanted it in 09, and at advisory board meetings in Stanley they said it was as much about ethics then as it was science. Although many wanted it, most didn't and spoke up and the legislature listened, the only place that didn't was the Game and fish and they went about it through the only way they could without being held accountable to what most of the state wanted.. the proclamation.

CWD may or may not be a serious disease. But until it's proven that a baiting restriction specifically helps slow the spread, why take a tool out of the tool box?

Have you ever seen 650 feed at a silage pile that's 60 feet wide and then had to use the horn on a tractor to get them to move? Have you ever removed 130 dead deer from a hay yard in a winter, after having over 100 deer harvested from that same yard, and then taken a game and fish "biologist" out to show them that and then been told the 5 gallon bait pile where 100 deer were shot was the larger threat than my silage pile?

 

[SAJ-99]

Prion diseases were known about in the 1700-1800s, with more in-sight into them in the early 1920s..

https://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/physics/brau/H182/Prusiner%20reading/HISTORICAL%20NOTES%20PRION%20DISEASES.pdf

As a disease agent. I apologize for not being clear.

Edit: I do however love how you will cite past science work to make your argument fit. It’s a very weak argument in this case.

 

[JLS]

Maybe CWD will start spreading with the hurricane season.

 

[wct12]

As a disease agent. I apologize for not being clear.

Edit: I do however love how you will cite past science work to make your argument fit. It’s a very weak argument in this case.

Are you familiar with deer populations in North Dakota over the last 20 years?

And the game and fishes "management" plan?

 

[SAJ-99]

Are you familiar with deer populations in North Dakota over the last 20 years?

And the game and fishes "management" plan?

Nope. Like the ND government reporting structure, that’s your deal. I don’t live in ND and I’m not doing your homework for you. You asked question on baiting ban relating to CWD. Those were answered by very knowledgeable professionals.

 

[wct12]

Nope. Like the ND government reporting structure, that’s your deal. I don’t live in ND and I’m not doing your homework for you. You asked question on baiting ban relating to CWD. Those were answered by very knowledgeable professionals.

Perfect.. you don't have to do my homework because I've done it for me.. Just like I have on data put forth by "knowledgeable professionals" that seem to be ignored by everyone on here.

The North Dakota game and fish department hopes to maintain a deer population that can support 75,000 tags.

Attached I have the tag numbers and harvest reports attached (had to convert from an excel to a PDF so it saved kind of ugly).. CWD was discovered in North Dakota in 2009.. that was after a multiple year trend past what the game and fish says is a maintainable population after years of mismanagement and trusting deer counts from the same areas almost every year instead of listening to the people that deal with them every year. The Game and Fish was warned by farmers and ranchers every year about an exploding population numbers at advisory board meetings on deaf ears because "we needed to trust the knowledgeable professionals"..

150 deer turned into 200, 200 to 250, 250 to 350, 350 to 400, 400 to 500, 500 to 600, 600 to 750 at the peak of the deer numbers in our yard. Mother nature then intervened as she always does as you can see by the decline in tag numbers.. but without mother nature doing her thing, the game and fish was at a level those "knowledgeable professionals" stated have said was unmaintainable.

After the highest deer numbers in North Dakota history due to the mismanagement of the Game and Fish Department, CWD showed up in state.. We are supposed to trust the management practices of the Game and Fish department that was unable to even remotely be close to properly managing deer herds to numbers they say are sustainable.. but yet we are supposed to trust those same professionals that more then likely played a key roll in CWD being found in state through their mismanagement of populations.

 

[SAJ-99]

Perfect.. you don't have to do my homework because I've done it for me.. Just like I have on data put forth by "knowledgeable professionals" that seem to be ignored by everyone on here.

The North Dakota game and fish department hopes to maintain a deer population that can support 75,000 tags.

Attached I have the tag numbers and harvest reports attached (had to convert from an excel to a PDF so it saved kind of ugly).. CWD was discovered in North Dakota in 2009.. that was after a multiple year trend past what the game and fish says is a maintainable population after years of mismanagement and trusting deer counts from the same areas almost every year instead of listening to the people that deal with them every year. The Game and Fish was warned by farmers and ranchers every year about an exploding population numbers at advisory board meetings on deaf ears because "we needed to trust the knowledgeable professionals"..

150 deer turned into 200, 200 to 250, 250 to 350, 350 to 400, 400 to 500, 500 to 600, 600 to 750 at the peak of the deer numbers in our yard. Mother nature then intervened as she always does as you can see by the decline in tag numbers.. but without mother nature doing her thing, the game and fish was at a level those "knowledgeable professionals" stated have said was unmaintainable.

After the highest deer numbers in North Dakota history due to the mismanagement of the Game and Fish Department, CWD showed up in state.. We are supposed to trust the management practices of the Game and Fish department that was unable to even remotely be close to properly managing deer herds to numbers they say are sustainable.. but yet we are supposed to trust those same professionals that more then likely played a key roll in CWD being found in state through their mismanagement of populations.

It is extremely hard to analyze data in a pdf. I can see the trend, but it seems like incomplete information. None of those numbers are deer population estimates. I can't understand the point you're trying to make, other than you the G&F department is incompetent. That seems to be a trend west of the Mississippi, so you should be able to find a Facebook support group.

Please use data to make better arguments. Ranting about how bad the wildlife department is gets you nowhere on HT.

 

[wct12]

It is extremely hard to analyze data in a pdf. I can see the trend, but it seems like incomplete information. None of those numbers are deer population estimates. I can't understand the point you're trying to make, other than you the G&F department is incompetent. That seems to be a trend west of the Mississippi, so you should be able to find a Facebook support group.

Please use data to make better arguments. Ranting about how bad the wildlife department is gets you nowhere on HT.

I literally posted data the game and fish department has released a couple times and it hasn't been addressed.

The numbers are hard to read but tag numbers are dependent on population counts in state.. higher population=higher tag numbers.

Brock, DGND and I are the only 3 that have posted data in here.. I have responded to each data point that Brock posted in response, and yet you ask me to use data to make better arguments.. I am using data put out by the Game and Fish department to raise doubts that their management practices might not work.. but yet it has been ignored and the numbers have yet to be discussed back by anyone in opposition.

 

[wct12]

It is extremely hard to analyze data in a pdf. I can see the trend, but it seems like incomplete information. None of those numbers are deer population estimates. I can't understand the point you're trying to make, other than you the G&F department is incompetent. That seems to be a trend west of the Mississippi, so you should be able to find a Facebook support group.

Please use data to make better arguments. Ranting about how bad the wildlife department is gets you nowhere on HT.

East vs west river is always going to have disagreements.. I said last night to someone east river seems to think the game and fish can do no wrong, west river tries to see what they do right. On the big game side of things.. it seems like west river deals with a majority of good habitat and also currently more regulations on the CWD front so that may be why they are the ones that are sick of it currently.

This is a Nodak issue. If you look on the legislative website a vast majority of testimony is in support of this bill is from actual citizens of nodak, with a decent chunk of opposition being national organizations or organizations where board members made stances without input of anybody but a few board members. North Dakota forums like nodakoutdoors the numbers lean fairly heavily in favor of the bill.

Outside dollars are the big push behind CWD on the game and fishes side. Maybe we don't need outside interests meddling into what a majority of people in the state have spoken up for.

 

[BlakeA]

This is a Nodak issue. If you look on the legislative website a vast majority of testimony is in support of this bill is from actual landowners wanting to hunt over bait in nodak,

Fixed it for you

North Dakota forums like nodakoutdoors the numbers lean fairly heavily in favor of the bill.

That's awesome. You are free to stay over there. Since so many are in favor, why are you even wasting your time here? You are not getting anywhere. It seems your time is better spent with the ND citizens in your FB support group.