My Two-year HOWA Experiment

[BuzzH]

As with most things, everyone has their opinion on what a rifle package should be.

I haven't commented, mainly just to see what the replies would be...about what I expected. No matter how well you try to make something that is functional, reliable, of some sort of quality, you'll still have the usual crowd trying to run down your efforts.

IMO, this looks like about the best combined package I've seen from a standard production type rifle for a long time. I've always thought that there is a market for a solid factory platform with good optics. I'm tired of manufacturers selling a rifle package and throwing in some junk scope. Last rifle I bought had a scope that came with it...honestly, I haven't even taken that scope out of the box.

There is a definite need for something between even semi-custom and the race to the bottom type rifles, and I believe this is a solid effort at filling that gap.

I hope people take a serious look at this rifle/scope package...if I were in need of an off the shelf production rifle, I sure would be.

 

[BuzzH]

I do like the choice of scopes that was chosen for the package.
But...
They need to include which specific manufacturer, bullet type, bullet weight for each package.
And know/be prepared for the certain phone calls of complaints that are sure to follow.
Example would be the 308 package calibrated for 165gr Nosler Partition ammo at your 5-7 thousand feet elevation. Then new owner doesn't want to spend the money on that ammo and instead is shooting 150 or 180gr Rem Corelokts, at 1,200 ft elevation in WV.

I personally don't buy factory ammo. And i shoot many different weights of bullets, and different types of bullets from the same rifle depending on my intended use for it that week.

I would argue that people investing in a package of this quality would be experienced enough to realize you can get a MOA turret and just run a ballistics program and create a new drop chart any time you feel the need to change loads, bullet weight, etc.

Easy enough a cave man can do it.

 

[Caseknife]

I applaud Big Fin and Howa for this project, it seems well thought out and it will not be able to please everybody, hope it sells good.

The scopes come with the moa turret installed, the cds turret will need to be ordered from Leupold by the end user dictating all the specifics. Decide to change loads...go back to the moa turret, pretty simple. BTW, these scopes are awesome, just got one from Schmalts at an incredible price.

 

[RockinU]

I feel like there are a lot of guys picking on this combo as if it were intended to be a 1000 yd bench gun. Looks to me like there are chamberings that are useful for every target animal that Randy listed even if some old favorites are left out. As for the barrel length, the main thing barrel length buys you is a few more fps, and I personally have had, and still have a rifle that shoots better backed off the top end for speed. Speed doesn't necessarily equate to accuracy, the load that an individual gun shoots most consistently is what leads to accuracy.

Looks to me like the intended audience will be well served by the offerings in this combo, but if they (or someone here) has an experience or leaning towards something else...there's plenty of other options out there that I'm sure would be right for them. I'm betting that Randy wants everyone to have the rifle that is right for them, and if someone is going to thread about skipped chamberings and 2" of barrel lengths, he won't mind you going another direction.

 

[ImBillT]

The 7mag is one of the most high performance cartridges out there. The main reason it isn’t more popular for competition is likely because you could burn the barrel out just tuning it. It’s good that it’s on the list. I like the 7-08, and for some reason or other short actions get a lot of love. Still, I’d like to see a 7mm option other than the 7mag that had a little more gas in the tank than 7-08. I see the 280Rem and 280AI as excellent choices. You have the popularity number on those and I don’t, but ammo sales reflect the number of rifles already in existence more than they do current popularity of cartridge being considered for a new purpose. Just something to consider. A 7-08 is still a great choice. There needs to be a 7mm option other than the 7mag. Perhaps even a sixth option for a 6.5mm larger than the CM.

For barrel length, the Berger manual offers approximations of velocity change per inch of barrel length change for every cartridge in the manual and they are fairly close to what you’d see over a chrono. Bigger cartridges gain more with increased barrel length than smaller ones of the same caliber. The primary reason to shoot a 7mag or 300mag instead of a 7-08 or .308 is the increased velocity. A longer barrel increases the ability to achieve those higher velocities. Off the top of my head I’d guess that a 7mag or 300mag gain around 40fps per inch within normal barrel lengths. 26” vs 22” actually makes a fair difference. Those interested in magnum cartridges are often more willing to carry a 26” barrel. I’ve carried a 30” barrel for the last two years and don’t find it to be a hinderance under most circumstances, but I’m certainly not the norm.

 

[BuzzH]

IMO, increasing barrel length, that results in increasing weight, adding whip, and chit for handiness, isn't worth the extra bit of velocity.

I probably wont ever own another rifle with a barrel longer than 24". Have a few with 26" barrels and don't see the appeal or need.

 

[RockinU]

The velocity difference between the .308 based chamberings (.308, 7mm-08) and the magnum offerings is around 500ish fps. The gain by adding 2 inches of barrel length is going to be 60-75 fps.

I also feel it's an over simplification to say that the primary reason to choose a magnum is velocity, but the point is, this whole discussion is likely to have little relevance to the target consumer for this rifle package. Most guys who are looking for a .280 AI, or a .7mm STW, or a .28 nosler, aren't looking for a rifle/scope combo. They are probably having their rifle built to their specifications. Pretty sure that's not what this is intended to be.

 

[ImBillT]

As far as barrel length adding weight, in usual hunting contours, it’s pretty much negligible. It does have a greater impact on balance, and certainly there are folks who wouldn’t like the change in balance and handling. I don’t find it significant in the 26” range, but again, I’m not most folks.


The reason to go to a magnum is velocity, even if it’s not direct or obvious. Although most factory 7-08’s don’t have the twist for a 180-195gr projectile, there’s no reason it can’t be done. The reason it isn’t done, and the reason they don’t come with a twist that will do it, is because most people wouldn’t like the velocity a 7-08 would achieve with those bullets. The biggest downfall of the .284 Win was that the extremely short barrel of the firearm they pushed it in caused it to be little more than an extremely loud 7-08.

 

[RockinU]

That's why I said it was an over simplification to say it was just velocity. It's the velocity that can be achieved with heavier bullets, I know that's splitting hairs, but it is where the down range performance really comes from. We can have a discussion about how heavier bullets maintain their velocity better, and therefore are more effective at distance even with a lesser MV, but I'm sure we both already understand that. The target audience for this package would likely fall asleep while we were having that conversation.

The barrel length doesn't particularly bother me either, but again, that's the point. This package isn't designed for, or being marketed to guys like us who likely carry a customized rifle and shoot hand loads. It's for guys who want to buy a nice, reliable rifle that shoots well at reasonable hunting distances, and doesn't require then to have to learn any advanced math in order for them to use it, or dedicate all of their free time to working up loads.

 

[Zach]

Add another vote for Option #5. My current 7mm-08 will be going to my daughter and I'm invested in light reloading gear for the platform.

I'm sure the analytics discussions with HOWA would put most of us to sleep, but for numbers geeks it's a enthralling conversation.

 

[ImBillT]

Sounds like people in this thread aren’t too hip on anything between a 7-08 and a 7mag, or a 26” barrel, so Fin is probably on the right track. I definitely think a 7mm smaller than the 7mag needs to be on the list, so if a 7-08 is going to be the one, then it needs to be there.

 

[iiiNelson]

Sounds like people in this thread aren’t too hip on anything between a 7-08 and a 7mag, or a 26” barrel, so Fin is probably on the right track. I definitely think a 7mm smaller than the 7mag needs to be on the list, so if a 7-08 is going to be the one, then it needs to be there.

I’d be all for a 280AI personally but I’d guess it has an even smaller following than the 7-08 judging from the available factory ammo options. You have Nosler, Hornady, Federal, and some custom boutique ammo makers producing factory loads. Most owners I’d guess handload but sometime people want factory options which doesn’t bode well most likely.

 

[ImBillT]

I’d be all for a 280AI personally but I’d guess it has an even smaller following than the 7-08 judging from the available factory ammo options. You have Nosler, Hornady, Federal, and some custom boutique ammo makers producing factory loads. Most owners I’d guess handload but sometime people want factory options which doesn’t bode well most likely.

Part of the lack of factory ammo is due to how recently the cartridge was standardized compared to the 7-08. Looking at the cartridges in the potential lineup, only the 6.5 CM is remotely new. Ammo sales for a particular cartridge probably tell you a lot about the variety or factory ammunition available, but probably do not tell you much about a common desire to purchase a new firearm chambered for that cartridge. Still, short actions are popular and the 7-08 will always have that going for it.

Edit:
When I said that the 6.5CM was the only new cartridge in the lineup, that was in now way intended to reflect negatively upon the cartridge choices. The ones that made the cut are great choices. I only mention their age because ammo sales were evaluated in making the choices, and I think the age of the cartridge probably has as large an effect on ammo sales as current popularity. I hope the 7-08 gets added to the list. I think there needs to be a 7mm smaller than the 7mag.

 

[iiiNelson]

Part of the lack of factory ammo is due to how recently the cartridge was standardized compared to the 7-08. Looking at the cartridges in the potential lineup, only the 6.5 CM is remotely new. Ammo sales for a particular cartridge probably tell you a lot about the variety or factory ammunition available, but probably do not tell you much about a common desire to purchase a new firearm chambered for that cartridge. Still, short actions are popular and the 7-08 will always have that going for it.

I agree and I’m a 7-08 owner myself. Just conveying what I received from Howa when I asked if there were plans to chamber in 280AI. Sort of rules them out of the running for my next rifle but who knows down the line.

 

[sockbot]

Will Howa be making these packages available in Canada?

 

[Hudge76]

I’d be all for a 280AI personally but I’d guess it has an even smaller following than the 7-08 judging from the available factory ammo options. You have Nosler, Hornady, Federal, and some custom boutique ammo makers producing factory loads. Most owners I’d guess handload but sometime people want factory options which doesn’t bode well most likely.

If I was buying one for myself, the .280 AI would be the top of my list.

 

[tzone]

I think you could narrow it down to 3 calibers.

• 300 Win Mag
• 308 Win
• 6.5 Creedmoor

You have to remember the philosophy of use of the cartridges out to reasonably hunting ranges, about a 400 yard max range out west. The 6.5 Creedmoor is very good for game up to 400lbs, the 308 is good for game up to 600lbs, and the 300 Win Mag game up to 800lbs.

I'd be interested to know where these "stats" came from...

 

[tzone]

.if I were in need of an off the shelf production rifle, I sure would be.

I think I would be too if I could get it in a .30-06. Good thing I'm not in that market.

I do like the rifle scope combo and the fact that neither of them are junk, not even close.

 

[Northwoods Labs]

Shocked that the 30-06 isn't on the list, especially since the intended target audience are new hunters. You can find ammo for them everywhere. Extremely popular cartridge where I am at, but maybe not so much in the west anymore? I'm not complaining, just surprised. Nice to see a great scope on it though

 

[mtmuley]

I would argue that people investing in a package of this quality would be experienced enough to realize you can get a MOA turret and just run a ballistics program and create a new drop chart any time you feel the need to change loads, bullet weight, etc.

Easy enough a cave man can do it.

Gotta disagree. Not what this package is targeted for. Seems to me it's the non handloader with no ballistics knowledge who thinks they need to twist at moderate ranges. Just my opinion of course. mtmuley